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	<title>Comments on: Me, Myself, and I - Part 2</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:43:55 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Mark Sehestedt</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-79385</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Sehestedt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Aug 2008 15:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-79385</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;I am an unrepentant detester of present-tense narratives.&lt;/em&gt;

I'm totally with you on that one!

I know my dislike of first-person narrative puts me in the extreme minority. BUt I can't help it. I guess whatever gene or neuron allows others to enjoy first-person narratives somehow misfired in me. ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>I am an unrepentant detester of present-tense narratives.</em></p>
<p>I&#8217;m totally with you on that one!</p>
<p>I know my dislike of first-person narrative puts me in the extreme minority. BUt I can&#8217;t help it. I guess whatever gene or neuron allows others to enjoy first-person narratives somehow misfired in me. <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Carol Berg</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-79258</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Berg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-79258</guid>
		<description>We all have preferences, of course.  (As it happens, I am an unrepentant detester of present-tense narratives.)  &lt;em&gt;Vive la&lt;/em&gt;...and all that.

But, of course, the &lt;em&gt;show, don't tell&lt;/em&gt; rule can be violated by a third-person narrative as well.  Badly done is badly done.

Your desire to become the characters, see through their eyes, hear through their ears is exactly what I LOVE about &lt;em&gt;well done&lt;/em&gt; first person.  That's also exactly why it is important to eliminate the "I saw," "I heard," "I thought,"  "I felt"  phrasing when writing first.  You can write "The rain pattered on the sidewalk like a pup's toenails" (or some much finer descriptive phrase) in either first or third person. It's when you start writing, "I heard the rain patter on the sidewalk" or "he heard the rain patter on the sidewalk" that you begin to distance the reader from the experience.  (Well that's one way!) 

The problem of being in only one person's head and only living the story with that one person is another one entirely, especially if you don't like that person.  And a character that comments endlessly on every experience can certainly become tiresome.  Again, badly done is badly done.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We all have preferences, of course.  (As it happens, I am an unrepentant detester of present-tense narratives.)  <em>Vive la</em>&#8230;and all that.</p>
<p>But, of course, the <em>show, don&#8217;t tell</em> rule can be violated by a third-person narrative as well.  Badly done is badly done.</p>
<p>Your desire to become the characters, see through their eyes, hear through their ears is exactly what I LOVE about <em>well done</em> first person.  That&#8217;s also exactly why it is important to eliminate the &#8220;I saw,&#8221; &#8220;I heard,&#8221; &#8220;I thought,&#8221;  &#8220;I felt&#8221;  phrasing when writing first.  You can write &#8220;The rain pattered on the sidewalk like a pup&#8217;s toenails&#8221; (or some much finer descriptive phrase) in either first or third person. It&#8217;s when you start writing, &#8220;I heard the rain patter on the sidewalk&#8221; or &#8220;he heard the rain patter on the sidewalk&#8221; that you begin to distance the reader from the experience.  (Well that&#8217;s one way!) </p>
<p>The problem of being in only one person&#8217;s head and only living the story with that one person is another one entirely, especially if you don&#8217;t like that person.  And a character that comments endlessly on every experience can certainly become tiresome.  Again, badly done is badly done.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Sehestedt</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-79250</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Sehestedt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 21:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-79250</guid>
		<description>I know I'm being a fusty, persnickety snoot with this, but I absolutely loathe first person narrative.

&lt;strong&gt;Show. Don't Tell.&lt;/strong&gt;

If not the #1 rule for writers, it is definitely in the Top 10. But reading first person narrative, I can't help but read it with the sense that I am being told-told-told everything.

When I sit down to read a book, I want to enter into the world of the characters. In a sense, I become the characters, seeing through their eyes, hearing through their ears, feeling what they feel. First-person narrative destroys that. I can never become the character, because the character never stops talking. Everything is relayed in the voice of the character. Yap-yap-yap.

I know I'm in the minority in this. But I stand unrepentant. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know I&#8217;m being a fusty, persnickety snoot with this, but I absolutely loathe first person narrative.</p>
<p><strong>Show. Don&#8217;t Tell.</strong></p>
<p>If not the #1 rule for writers, it is definitely in the Top 10. But reading first person narrative, I can&#8217;t help but read it with the sense that I am being told-told-told everything.</p>
<p>When I sit down to read a book, I want to enter into the world of the characters. In a sense, I become the characters, seeing through their eyes, hearing through their ears, feeling what they feel. First-person narrative destroys that. I can never become the character, because the character never stops talking. Everything is relayed in the voice of the character. Yap-yap-yap.</p>
<p>I know I&#8217;m in the minority in this. But I stand unrepentant. <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-72103</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 14:00:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-72103</guid>
		<description>Long ago I used to love first person.  It felt like acting, as if I was writing while wearing a mask -- I could &lt;em&gt;be&lt;/em&gt; the narrating character.  Somewhere along the line I learned how to do it while writing in 3rd person.  Now I'm convinced that anything you can do in first person, you can do in third.

Although... there are glorious works in first person.  Palahniuk's &lt;em&gt;Fight Club&lt;/em&gt; comes to mind.

And if you want the ultimate tutorial for omniscient, try Herbert's &lt;em&gt;Dune&lt;/em&gt;.

And as for making characters compelling, here we fiction writers must acknowledge the superior expertise of screenwriters.  Blake Snyder, for example.

Thanks!
-- Steve</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Long ago I used to love first person.  It felt like acting, as if I was writing while wearing a mask &#8212; I could <em>be</em> the narrating character.  Somewhere along the line I learned how to do it while writing in 3rd person.  Now I&#8217;m convinced that anything you can do in first person, you can do in third.</p>
<p>Although&#8230; there are glorious works in first person.  Palahniuk&#8217;s <em>Fight Club</em> comes to mind.</p>
<p>And if you want the ultimate tutorial for omniscient, try Herbert&#8217;s <em>Dune</em>.</p>
<p>And as for making characters compelling, here we fiction writers must acknowledge the superior expertise of screenwriters.  Blake Snyder, for example.</p>
<p>Thanks!<br />
&#8211; Steve</p>
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		<title>By: Carol Berg</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-72102</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Berg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 13:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-72102</guid>
		<description>Deborah,

Yes, it is a revelation when one finds the right voice to tell the story.  When writing &lt;em&gt;Guardians of the Keep&lt;/em&gt; I kept waffling about which of my first person narrators was going to tell the story of the kidnapped 10-year-old child.  I tried each and nothing worked.  And then, I thought, why not the kid? One of the best choices I ever made.

And thank you for the kind words.  Glad you're enjoying Valen. He was ornery and obstreperous, but eventually revealed himself.  I'm having a hard time leaving him behind!  

Carol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Deborah,</p>
<p>Yes, it is a revelation when one finds the right voice to tell the story.  When writing <em>Guardians of the Keep</em> I kept waffling about which of my first person narrators was going to tell the story of the kidnapped 10-year-old child.  I tried each and nothing worked.  And then, I thought, why not the kid? One of the best choices I ever made.</p>
<p>And thank you for the kind words.  Glad you&#8217;re enjoying Valen. He was ornery and obstreperous, but eventually revealed himself.  I&#8217;m having a hard time leaving him behind!  </p>
<p>Carol</p>
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		<title>By: Deborah J. Ross</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-72063</link>
		<dc:creator>Deborah J. Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Jul 2008 03:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-72063</guid>
		<description>Great discussion, everyone!

My second novel, NORTHLIGHT (as Deborah Wheeler), alternated fairly tight third person (young male scholar) and first person (female knife fighter). Early drafts were in third only, and the story just sat there on the pages, like a stunned jellyfish. I thrashed around until I realized that I myself didn't get interested until the knife fighter came blazing into the story. So I cut the first 150 pages and began with her in first person. Sizzle!

Carol, I'm 3/4 through FLESH AND SPIRIT, and immensely enjoying your viewpoint character, with all the shadings and complexities you discussed above. Well done!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great discussion, everyone!</p>
<p>My second novel, NORTHLIGHT (as Deborah Wheeler), alternated fairly tight third person (young male scholar) and first person (female knife fighter). Early drafts were in third only, and the story just sat there on the pages, like a stunned jellyfish. I thrashed around until I realized that I myself didn&#8217;t get interested until the knife fighter came blazing into the story. So I cut the first 150 pages and began with her in first person. Sizzle!</p>
<p>Carol, I&#8217;m 3/4 through FLESH AND SPIRIT, and immensely enjoying your viewpoint character, with all the shadings and complexities you discussed above. Well done!</p>
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		<title>By: glenda larke</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-71655</link>
		<dc:creator>glenda larke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jul 2008 09:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-71655</guid>
		<description>Wonderful post. So much excellent advice and I so agree with you. And great stuff in the comments too.

Four of my published books were written in the first person. But initially I had so many rejections, all saying something like, "Wonderful use of the first person PoV, but we feel that this point of view does not..." and then they would go on to make a generalization that really didn't apply to my particular book.

So be warned - if you are unpublished and looking for a publisher for a fantasy (unless it is modern urban fantasy which uses 1st person all the time), you will find it a difficult sell.

Yesterday, quite by coincidence, I posted a 2000 rejection letter that dealt with just this issue...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonderful post. So much excellent advice and I so agree with you. And great stuff in the comments too.</p>
<p>Four of my published books were written in the first person. But initially I had so many rejections, all saying something like, &#8220;Wonderful use of the first person PoV, but we feel that this point of view does not&#8230;&#8221; and then they would go on to make a generalization that really didn&#8217;t apply to my particular book.</p>
<p>So be warned - if you are unpublished and looking for a publisher for a fantasy (unless it is modern urban fantasy which uses 1st person all the time), you will find it a difficult sell.</p>
<p>Yesterday, quite by coincidence, I posted a 2000 rejection letter that dealt with just this issue&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-71598</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 21:03:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-71598</guid>
		<description>Excellent post.

The choice of whose eyes we see the story through is so crucial, and in which way, whether 1st, 3rd, or omniscient (or 2nd, although that is rare).

I wonder if we can come up with any/many cases of writers who started a first draft from one point of view only to realize the story needed to be told by someone else.  Which is not quite the same as adding additional 3rd person pov characters or switching from 3rd to 1st between drafts (or back the other way).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent post.</p>
<p>The choice of whose eyes we see the story through is so crucial, and in which way, whether 1st, 3rd, or omniscient (or 2nd, although that is rare).</p>
<p>I wonder if we can come up with any/many cases of writers who started a first draft from one point of view only to realize the story needed to be told by someone else.  Which is not quite the same as adding additional 3rd person pov characters or switching from 3rd to 1st between drafts (or back the other way).</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-71504</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 00:30:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-71504</guid>
		<description>On withholding information -- your first-person narrator can only get away with it if

1.  the narrator is &lt;em&gt;telling&lt;/em&gt; the story.  Either actually writing the manuscript, or telling someone.  Not the third-person  POV with the pronouns replaced.

2.  you put about enough clues that the narrator is unreliable.

3.  and the process of trying to figure out what the narrator is up to and trying to hide from you is fun.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On withholding information &#8212; your first-person narrator can only get away with it if</p>
<p>1.  the narrator is <em>telling</em> the story.  Either actually writing the manuscript, or telling someone.  Not the third-person  POV with the pronouns replaced.</p>
<p>2.  you put about enough clues that the narrator is unreliable.</p>
<p>3.  and the process of trying to figure out what the narrator is up to and trying to hide from you is fun.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/carolberg/craft/me-myself-and-i-part-2#comment-71495</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 22:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=519#comment-71495</guid>
		<description>On the point that 2 should not depend on 1 and 3 -- actually, that kinda depends on the story.  There are indeed stories where telling it in first person will make it hard for those very reasons.

That's why there are other POVs.

If you have problems telling a story in first person, consider whether first-person is the best choice for it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the point that 2 should not depend on 1 and 3 &#8212; actually, that kinda depends on the story.  There are indeed stories where telling it in first person will make it hard for those very reasons.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why there are other POVs.</p>
<p>If you have problems telling a story in first person, consider whether first-person is the best choice for it.</p>
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