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	<title>Comments on: Down the Pub With Tolkien and C. S. Lewis</title>
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	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 12:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Constance Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42528</link>
		<dc:creator>Constance Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:50:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Alas, dear Sir, there are so many holes in your lovely theory.

Rye, though a close relative of barley, was not grown in that region, being a grain principally of eastern, central and particularly northern Europe.  Additionally, rye is believed to &lt;em&gt;strengthen&lt;/em&gt; the immune system, particularly if ingested as the liquid 'rye grass'.

As well, though distillation is an old technology -- the ancient Egyptians employed it for the making of perfume, for instance -- the making of whisky is ancient &lt;em&gt;Celtic&lt;/em&gt; art, not one of Mesopotamia.  Distillation didn't spread widely through Europe until the the 11th and 12th centuries A.D. , though it is believed that the Irish monks were using it already in the 5th C. A.D.  Sumer was already long, long, long and longer yet, gone.

&lt;a href="http://www.celtic-whisky.com/histrya.htm" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;strong&gt;From this interesting whisky site&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/a&gt;:

In his "Chronicles of England, Scotland and Ireland" published in 1577, Raphael Holinshed describes as follows the incomparable virtues of Uisge Beatha :


"Being moderately taken,
it slows the age,
it cuts phlegm,
it lightens the mind,
it quickens the spirit,
it cures the dropsy,
it heals the strangulation,
it pounces the stone,
its repels gravel,
it pulls away ventositie,
it keeps and preserves the head from whirling,
the eyes from dazzling,
the tongue from lisping,
the mouth from snuffling,
the teeth from chattering,
the throat from rattling,
the weasan from stiffing,
the stomach from womblying,
the heart from swelling,
the belly from wincing,
the guts from rumbling,
the hands from shivering,
the sinews from shrinking,
the veins from crumpling,
the bones from aching,
the marrow from soaking,
and truly it is a sovereign liquor
if it be orderly taken."

I'm not particularly fond of scotch and whiskies either.   But wine and beer, those oldest solaces for the pain of being human, I do love, particularly in company of good conversation, good friends and good food.

Salud!

Love, C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Alas, dear Sir, there are so many holes in your lovely theory.</p>
<p>Rye, though a close relative of barley, was not grown in that region, being a grain principally of eastern, central and particularly northern Europe.  Additionally, rye is believed to <em>strengthen</em> the immune system, particularly if ingested as the liquid &#8216;rye grass&#8217;.</p>
<p>As well, though distillation is an old technology &#8212; the ancient Egyptians employed it for the making of perfume, for instance &#8212; the making of whisky is ancient <em>Celtic</em> art, not one of Mesopotamia.  Distillation didn&#8217;t spread widely through Europe until the the 11th and 12th centuries A.D. , though it is believed that the Irish monks were using it already in the 5th C. A.D.  Sumer was already long, long, long and longer yet, gone.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.celtic-whisky.com/histrya.htm" rel="nofollow"><strong>From this interesting whisky site</strong></a>:</p>
<p>In his &#8220;Chronicles of England, Scotland and Ireland&#8221; published in 1577, Raphael Holinshed describes as follows the incomparable virtues of Uisge Beatha :</p>
<p>&#8220;Being moderately taken,<br />
it slows the age,<br />
it cuts phlegm,<br />
it lightens the mind,<br />
it quickens the spirit,<br />
it cures the dropsy,<br />
it heals the strangulation,<br />
it pounces the stone,<br />
its repels gravel,<br />
it pulls away ventositie,<br />
it keeps and preserves the head from whirling,<br />
the eyes from dazzling,<br />
the tongue from lisping,<br />
the mouth from snuffling,<br />
the teeth from chattering,<br />
the throat from rattling,<br />
the weasan from stiffing,<br />
the stomach from womblying,<br />
the heart from swelling,<br />
the belly from wincing,<br />
the guts from rumbling,<br />
the hands from shivering,<br />
the sinews from shrinking,<br />
the veins from crumpling,<br />
the bones from aching,<br />
the marrow from soaking,<br />
and truly it is a sovereign liquor<br />
if it be orderly taken.&#8221;</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not particularly fond of scotch and whiskies either.   But wine and beer, those oldest solaces for the pain of being human, I do love, particularly in company of good conversation, good friends and good food.</p>
<p>Salud!</p>
<p>Love, C.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Podger</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42523</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Podger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Sep 2007 15:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Perhaps their civilization collapsed because they swapped from beer to rye whiskey.  The rye brings ergotism.  Ergotism lowers the immune system.  People die of other pathogens they would have otherwise fought off(eg the black death in medieval europe).  Society collapses.

Thank god I hate whiskey.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps their civilization collapsed because they swapped from beer to rye whiskey.  The rye brings ergotism.  Ergotism lowers the immune system.  People die of other pathogens they would have otherwise fought off(eg the black death in medieval europe).  Society collapses.</p>
<p>Thank god I hate whiskey.</p>
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		<title>By: Constance Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42354</link>
		<dc:creator>Constance Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 20:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The more I think about it, the more joy I am finding in that barley payment for beer.

It is the circle of life.

Barley is what makes beer, barley is the money that pays for beer, beer attracts the money-barley that is the barley out of which comes beer.

Beer &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; life, in fact, if you are Vaquero, for instance.

Which may explain why I, seeming alone of the kindred, rejoice in the &lt;em&gt;Buffy&lt;/em&gt; ep, "Beer Bad."

Those Sumers were very sophisticated people. It's too bad their civilization collapsed.  I bet their beer was pretty good.

Love, C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The more I think about it, the more joy I am finding in that barley payment for beer.</p>
<p>It is the circle of life.</p>
<p>Barley is what makes beer, barley is the money that pays for beer, beer attracts the money-barley that is the barley out of which comes beer.</p>
<p>Beer <em>is</em> life, in fact, if you are Vaquero, for instance.</p>
<p>Which may explain why I, seeming alone of the kindred, rejoice in the <em>Buffy</em> ep, &#8220;Beer Bad.&#8221;</p>
<p>Those Sumers were very sophisticated people. It&#8217;s too bad their civilization collapsed.  I bet their beer was pretty good.</p>
<p>Love, C.</p>
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		<title>By: Muneraven</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42352</link>
		<dc:creator>Muneraven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 19:49:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>It is so much easier to say too much than it is to not say enough when you love words.  Probably most of us who write need to have friends who will tell us to just shut up already...the story is DONE.  

:-P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is so much easier to say too much than it is to not say enough when you love words.  Probably most of us who write need to have friends who will tell us to just shut up already&#8230;the story is DONE.  </p>
<p> <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':-P' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Constance Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42336</link>
		<dc:creator>Constance Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 17:08:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42336</guid>
		<description>Regarding more on taverns -- barley for beer --  Sumerian tavern keepers warned that they &lt;em&gt;must accept barley as payment for beer, &lt;/em&gt;back, presumably, between 4000 and 2000 BC (Isn't it 2,000 BC when the Sumarian civilization collapsed?!

This is from page 100 of Fernand Braudel's &lt;em&gt;Memory and the Mediterranean&lt;/em&gt;:

[ &lt;strong&gt;The earliest form of currency used for payment by the Sumerians was a measure of barley.  So in Mesopotamia money had its origins in crop cultivation, rather than in livestock, which wa the unit used in Rome (&lt;em&gt;pecunia&lt;/em&gt;), in Greece (&lt;em&gt;bous&lt;/em&gt;) and in India (&lt;em&gt;rupia&lt;/em&gt;).  Barley as currency continued to be used for ordinary transactions, since metal, when it made its first appearance (first copper, then silver, in weighted amounts), was a sort of money of account, a scale of reference.  Barley continued to be the 'real' money.

. . . . Silver as soon as it appeared and began to be used as real currency for some transactions, tended, in fact, to prevail over other forms of payment.  This explains one decision of the code of Hammurabi: if the proprietress of a tavern will not accept grains as the price for a drink, but recieves silver and therefore "makes the price of the drink fall below the price of grain, the proprietress will be seized and flung into the water."....&lt;/strong&gt; ]

What is interesting too, further than just the idea of taking in a handful of barley to get a beer -- from which, presumably, the beer itself is made -- is that the word for the tavern keeper in Hammurabi's law is feminine, opening a window into the urban culture of the region, that long ago.

Love, C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding more on taverns &#8212; barley for beer &#8212;  Sumerian tavern keepers warned that they <em>must accept barley as payment for beer, </em>back, presumably, between 4000 and 2000 BC (Isn&#8217;t it 2,000 BC when the Sumarian civilization collapsed?!</p>
<p>This is from page 100 of Fernand Braudel&#8217;s <em>Memory and the Mediterranean</em>:</p>
<p>[ <strong>The earliest form of currency used for payment by the Sumerians was a measure of barley.  So in Mesopotamia money had its origins in crop cultivation, rather than in livestock, which wa the unit used in Rome (<em>pecunia</em>), in Greece (<em>bous</em>) and in India (<em>rupia</em>).  Barley as currency continued to be used for ordinary transactions, since metal, when it made its first appearance (first copper, then silver, in weighted amounts), was a sort of money of account, a scale of reference.  Barley continued to be the 'real' money.</p>
<p>. . . . Silver as soon as it appeared and began to be used as real currency for some transactions, tended, in fact, to prevail over other forms of payment.  This explains one decision of the code of Hammurabi: if the proprietress of a tavern will not accept grains as the price for a drink, but recieves silver and therefore "makes the price of the drink fall below the price of grain, the proprietress will be seized and flung into the water."....</strong> ]</p>
<p>What is interesting too, further than just the idea of taking in a handful of barley to get a beer &#8212; from which, presumably, the beer itself is made &#8212; is that the word for the tavern keeper in Hammurabi&#8217;s law is feminine, opening a window into the urban culture of the region, that long ago.</p>
<p>Love, C.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Podger</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42231</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Podger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Sep 2007 01:03:20 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>When I first read LOTR it was the in the single book form that left out the appendices.  I got to the end and was fuming.

Sam who had followed and helped Frodo all the way across the world and had freaking carried him half way across Mordor and up Mount Doom got left behind!  Such injustice.

I was very happy to find out the timeline shown in the appendicies has Sam board a ship after Rosie dies and is rejoined with Frodo at last.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I first read LOTR it was the in the single book form that left out the appendices.  I got to the end and was fuming.</p>
<p>Sam who had followed and helped Frodo all the way across the world and had freaking carried him half way across Mordor and up Mount Doom got left behind!  Such injustice.</p>
<p>I was very happy to find out the timeline shown in the appendicies has Sam board a ship after Rosie dies and is rejoined with Frodo at last.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42208</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 23:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You know, Rowling also wrote a much long epilogue for the series, that got axed.

There is a certain amount of impulse to explain &lt;em&gt;how&lt;/em&gt; everyone lived happily ever after.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You know, Rowling also wrote a much long epilogue for the series, that got axed.</p>
<p>There is a certain amount of impulse to explain <em>how</em> everyone lived happily ever after.</p>
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		<title>By: Constance Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42189</link>
		<dc:creator>Constance Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:39:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks, Sherwood.

How come it's not in &lt;em&gt;Books in Print&lt;/em&gt;, I wonder?

Kent State University Press (March 1, 2007) -- not available in bookstores, generally, then?  It's not in the NYPL collections either.

Love, C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Sherwood.</p>
<p>How come it&#8217;s not in <em>Books in Print</em>, I wonder?</p>
<p>Kent State University Press (March 1, 2007) &#8212; not available in bookstores, generally, then?  It&#8217;s not in the NYPL collections either.</p>
<p>Love, C.</p>
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		<title>By: Sherwood Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42188</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherwood Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:35:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Constance:  the book was published here in the U.S. and is indeed available.  Just look up Diana Glyer's name on Amazon, it pops right up.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Constance:  the book was published here in the U.S. and is indeed available.  Just look up Diana Glyer&#8217;s name on Amazon, it pops right up.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/constanceash/craft/down-the-pub-with-tolkien-and-c-s-lewis#comment-42184</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:22:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Stacy - 

You might want to check out The Histories of Middle Earth.  It's a 12 volume set edited by Christopher Tolkien laying out his father's writing process.

It is quite amazing to see where Tolkien started going with the LOTR and where he ended up taking it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stacy - </p>
<p>You might want to check out The Histories of Middle Earth.  It&#8217;s a 12 volume set edited by Christopher Tolkien laying out his father&#8217;s writing process.</p>
<p>It is quite amazing to see where Tolkien started going with the LOTR and where he ended up taking it.</p>
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