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	<title>Comments on: In the wake of the USA presidential election, Deep Genre is thinking about politics, class, and fantasy and science fiction.</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-8237</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Feb 2009 22:51:48 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The problem with China Mieville&#039;s take on things is best summed up by quoting Howard Jacobson on the eminent literary critic Terry Eagleton,for whom Jacobson has immense respect: &#039;Few critics read a text better than Terry Eagleton, but he&#039;s a Marxist – not some of the time, but all of the time, and you can&#039;t be anything all of the time when it comes to art&#039;. That&#039;s my problem with China Mieville. Almost every pronouncement I&#039;ve read China making on high or traditional epic fantasy is mediated through a pair of ideologically red tinted glasses. 

It is interesting that China takes a real pop at Tolkien in that interview, pointing out apparently contradictory statements regarding Tolkien&#039;s &#039;On Fairy Tales&#039;. Tolkien grasped that 2+2=5 is an equally wonderful thing as 2+2=4. There is no contradiction other than those to be found concurrently in life. And fiction - even fantasy! - can be a bit like life. That is why a happy ending is something that occurs miraculously never to be counted on to recur but also why all complete fairy tales must have it [the happy ending] it is its highest function. Wish fulfilment. Suspension of disbelief. The leap of faith we make as readers each time we pick up a novel. The key word here is &lt;em&gt;complete&lt;/em&gt;. China neatly side-steps the damage shot through at the end of &lt;em&gt;The Lord of the Rings&lt;/em&gt; because it undermines his seemingly telling insight. Forget the passing of the world, it is at the level of the individual characters that it impacts upon the reader, that has little to do with any sort of inherent ideological value system - although whichever one it is may be a catalyst - and everything to do with personal experience. You get more than your fair share of Mahler&#039;s 6th and Sibelius&#039;s 4th symphonies at the conclusion, happy endings elsewhere notwithstanding. This is the level at which good and great literature can operate. This is art. No polemic necessary.

Tolkien had more than a bit of implicit Jung in him (as a formidable expert on myth and the symbolic power of language as history how could he not?), he isn&#039;t just head with an axe ground into it. There &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; a happy ending in &lt;em&gt;The Lord of the Rings&lt;/em&gt; but because it also is a &lt;em&gt;complete&lt;/em&gt; fairy tale that is only part of the story. Irrevocable damage is done. I don&#039;t know about ideology but a writer worth his salt who lived through the First World War and who saw the Second play out didn&#039;t let that one pass. 

As that proto-fascist, sex mad, misogynistic, ideological maniac of a traitor to his class David &#039;erbert Lawrence once said: Never trust the teller, trust the tale.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem with China Mieville&#8217;s take on things is best summed up by quoting Howard Jacobson on the eminent literary critic Terry Eagleton,for whom Jacobson has immense respect: &#8216;Few critics read a text better than Terry Eagleton, but he&#8217;s a Marxist – not some of the time, but all of the time, and you can&#8217;t be anything all of the time when it comes to art&#8217;. That&#8217;s my problem with China Mieville. Almost every pronouncement I&#8217;ve read China making on high or traditional epic fantasy is mediated through a pair of ideologically red tinted glasses. </p>
<p>It is interesting that China takes a real pop at Tolkien in that interview, pointing out apparently contradictory statements regarding Tolkien&#8217;s &#8216;On Fairy Tales&#8217;. Tolkien grasped that 2+2=5 is an equally wonderful thing as 2+2=4. There is no contradiction other than those to be found concurrently in life. And fiction &#8211; even fantasy! &#8211; can be a bit like life. That is why a happy ending is something that occurs miraculously never to be counted on to recur but also why all complete fairy tales must have it [the happy ending] it is its highest function. Wish fulfilment. Suspension of disbelief. The leap of faith we make as readers each time we pick up a novel. The key word here is <em>complete</em>. China neatly side-steps the damage shot through at the end of <em>The Lord of the Rings</em> because it undermines his seemingly telling insight. Forget the passing of the world, it is at the level of the individual characters that it impacts upon the reader, that has little to do with any sort of inherent ideological value system &#8211; although whichever one it is may be a catalyst &#8211; and everything to do with personal experience. You get more than your fair share of Mahler&#8217;s 6th and Sibelius&#8217;s 4th symphonies at the conclusion, happy endings elsewhere notwithstanding. This is the level at which good and great literature can operate. This is art. No polemic necessary.</p>
<p>Tolkien had more than a bit of implicit Jung in him (as a formidable expert on myth and the symbolic power of language as history how could he not?), he isn&#8217;t just head with an axe ground into it. There <em>is</em> a happy ending in <em>The Lord of the Rings</em> but because it also is a <em>complete</em> fairy tale that is only part of the story. Irrevocable damage is done. I don&#8217;t know about ideology but a writer worth his salt who lived through the First World War and who saw the Second play out didn&#8217;t let that one pass. </p>
<p>As that proto-fascist, sex mad, misogynistic, ideological maniac of a traitor to his class David &#8216;erbert Lawrence once said: Never trust the teller, trust the tale.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-7513</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Nov 2008 00:00:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=556#comment-7513</guid>
		<description>that&#039;s why I said &quot;Commonly.&quot;  0:)

And -- well, there are better things to be said of a condition that it is better than the 18th century.  (Worse things, too, to be sure.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>that&#8217;s why I said &#8220;Commonly.&#8221;  0:)</p>
<p>And &#8212; well, there are better things to be said of a condition that it is better than the 18th century.  (Worse things, too, to be sure.)</p>
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		<title>By: jewell</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-7512</link>
		<dc:creator>jewell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 23:13:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=556#comment-7512</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Kate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Kate.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-7528</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 17:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=556#comment-7528</guid>
		<description>Jewell, it&#039;s been a few years since I was up with this material, but a few considerations are these:

1) a medieval farmer, especially one who was not a serf or who lived without truly onerous serf conditions (France, forex, was particularly bad in this regard), almost certain had a better diet than a person who lived in a town or city in the 18th century;  also, conditions of serfdom changed over time and in different regions, and that had a significant effect on health.

2) although some people did travel, the disease vectors were not as virulent because disease did not travel as frequently;  that is, when an infectious disease came into a village it could really decimate a population because there was no immunity, but in the same way, decades might pass with no outbreak.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jewell, it&#8217;s been a few years since I was up with this material, but a few considerations are these:</p>
<p>1) a medieval farmer, especially one who was not a serf or who lived without truly onerous serf conditions (France, forex, was particularly bad in this regard), almost certain had a better diet than a person who lived in a town or city in the 18th century;  also, conditions of serfdom changed over time and in different regions, and that had a significant effect on health.</p>
<p>2) although some people did travel, the disease vectors were not as virulent because disease did not travel as frequently;  that is, when an infectious disease came into a village it could really decimate a population because there was no immunity, but in the same way, decades might pass with no outbreak.</p>
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		<title>By: Caliban and His Mirror: a Guest Post by James Enge (DeepGenre)</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-7568</link>
		<dc:creator>Caliban and His Mirror: a Guest Post by James Enge (DeepGenre)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:36:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=556#comment-7568</guid>
		<description>[...] &#8220;SF Diplomat&#8221; question of whether fantasy is inherently reactionary. The first was (by Kate Elliott, and the next by Lois Tilton; both have provoked interesting comment threads, and with luck there [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] &#8220;SF Diplomat&#8221; question of whether fantasy is inherently reactionary. The first was (by Kate Elliott, and the next by Lois Tilton; both have provoked interesting comment threads, and with luck there [...]</p>
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		<title>By: jewell</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-7567</link>
		<dc:creator>jewell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 07:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=556#comment-7567</guid>
		<description>&quot;In Denmark, at least, a medieval farmer was taller and more robust (based on skeletal remains) than the average villager in the 18th century. Their life expentency was better, too.&quot;

Interesting - was this because of better social organisation or partly because it was a little warmer in medieval times?  Or some other reason?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;In Denmark, at least, a medieval farmer was taller and more robust (based on skeletal remains) than the average villager in the 18th century. Their life expentency was better, too.&#8221;</p>
<p>Interesting &#8211; was this because of better social organisation or partly because it was a little warmer in medieval times?  Or some other reason?</p>
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		<title>By: Lois Tilton</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-7519</link>
		<dc:creator>Lois Tilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:46:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=556#comment-7519</guid>
		<description>The religious aspect of Tolkien is most strongly expressed in the Silmarillion.  This is where we see the history of the elves and see how some of them are High, which is to say, closer to the divine, and with more divine power.  Tolkien is extremely hierarchical, but it is like the hierarchies of angels, who are seated closer or farther from the seat of god.

But Tolkien&#039;s outlook is Christian, so he does reject essentialism in the children of god, because they have free will and some of them do turn against god and choose evil, even the beings of the highest order.

But the beings that Melkor created, or rather bred, were made by corrupting the children of god, and this does seem to have made them essentially evil, being the products of this corruption, and they seem to have lost free will in the process.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The religious aspect of Tolkien is most strongly expressed in the Silmarillion.  This is where we see the history of the elves and see how some of them are High, which is to say, closer to the divine, and with more divine power.  Tolkien is extremely hierarchical, but it is like the hierarchies of angels, who are seated closer or farther from the seat of god.</p>
<p>But Tolkien&#8217;s outlook is Christian, so he does reject essentialism in the children of god, because they have free will and some of them do turn against god and choose evil, even the beings of the highest order.</p>
<p>But the beings that Melkor created, or rather bred, were made by corrupting the children of god, and this does seem to have made them essentially evil, being the products of this corruption, and they seem to have lost free will in the process.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-7576</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:17:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=556#comment-7576</guid>
		<description>Jewell,

I had forgotten about the Narnia clothes!  I like that because it reminds me of jeans and a t-shirt!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jewell,</p>
<p>I had forgotten about the Narnia clothes!  I like that because it reminds me of jeans and a t-shirt!</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-7509</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Nov 2008 00:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=556#comment-7509</guid>
		<description>In Denmark, at least, a medieval farmer was taller and more robust (based on skeletal remains) than the average villager in the 18th century.  Their life expentency was better, too.

So, as my sister the medievalist would say, which period and where and when?  As you say, it&#039;s all variable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In Denmark, at least, a medieval farmer was taller and more robust (based on skeletal remains) than the average villager in the 18th century.  Their life expentency was better, too.</p>
<p>So, as my sister the medievalist would say, which period and where and when?  As you say, it&#8217;s all variable.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/in-the-wake-of-the-usa-presidential-election-deep-genre-is-thinking-about-politics-class-and-fantasy-and-science-fiction/comment-page-2/#comment-7572</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Nov 2008 23:55:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/?p=556#comment-7572</guid>
		<description>Peasants are human and therefore variable, but they have a number of traits in common:

1.  Lack of education -- usually total
2.  Commonly malnourished
3.  Commonly exhausted -- back-breaking labor is not hyperbole.

None of these really are conductive to lively thinking.

&lt;em&gt;The Discovery of France&lt;/em&gt; by Graham Robb provides a detailed and well-documented -- if rather horrifying picture of what it was like in France at the time of the Revolution.

Actually, they did travel.  Some.  Most people went on pilgrimages as far as 200 miles away; at least, he includes stories of peasants who were mocked for never having gone on a traditional pilgrimage.  But that didn&#039;t prevent them from regarding a bride who came from the other side of the river as a foreigner for her entire life.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peasants are human and therefore variable, but they have a number of traits in common:</p>
<p>1.  Lack of education &#8212; usually total<br />
2.  Commonly malnourished<br />
3.  Commonly exhausted &#8212; back-breaking labor is not hyperbole.</p>
<p>None of these really are conductive to lively thinking.</p>
<p><em>The Discovery of France</em> by Graham Robb provides a detailed and well-documented &#8212; if rather horrifying picture of what it was like in France at the time of the Revolution.</p>
<p>Actually, they did travel.  Some.  Most people went on pilgrimages as far as 200 miles away; at least, he includes stories of peasants who were mocked for never having gone on a traditional pilgrimage.  But that didn&#8217;t prevent them from regarding a bride who came from the other side of the river as a foreigner for her entire life.</p>
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