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	<title>Comments on: Critique #114 &#8212; Taensray Lewins #2</title>
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	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:23:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114#comment-9854</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 21:05:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114/#comment-9854</guid>
		<description>Taensray,


I think you've gotten some good line editing advice.  My problem with this opening is that I don't perceive any narrative tension.  That is, I don't have an inkling of where you're going with this - the description seems so far to have little purpose, not even a passing thought about why he is in this situation or some manner of reflection that he wishes he wasn't here but has no choice.

Also, this is a personal reaction:  I am assuming that 'spotty' is a reference to acne.  I have seen enough teenage kids made miserable by acne to not find this by-play remotely amusing.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Taensray,</p>
<p>I think you&#8217;ve gotten some good line editing advice.  My problem with this opening is that I don&#8217;t perceive any narrative tension.  That is, I don&#8217;t have an inkling of where you&#8217;re going with this - the description seems so far to have little purpose, not even a passing thought about why he is in this situation or some manner of reflection that he wishes he wasn&#8217;t here but has no choice.</p>
<p>Also, this is a personal reaction:  I am assuming that &#8217;spotty&#8217; is a reference to acne.  I have seen enough teenage kids made miserable by acne to not find this by-play remotely amusing.</p>
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		<title>By: Taensray Lewins</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114#comment-9851</link>
		<dc:creator>Taensray Lewins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 19:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114/#comment-9851</guid>
		<description>Aaaah-thankyou. I tend to be over-excessive on commas, so I think I went a bit far in the opposite direction there! And again, semi-colons are not my favourite of devices! ;-P Understood, both, thankyou.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aaaah-thankyou. I tend to be over-excessive on commas, so I think I went a bit far in the opposite direction there! And again, semi-colons are not my favourite of devices! ;-P Understood, both, thankyou.</p>
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		<title>By: Gyp Oriens</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114#comment-9829</link>
		<dc:creator>Gyp Oriens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Sorry, something disappeared in my above post. The sentence was, "There's a big difference between 'But I thought it was gravy!' and 'How do you spell "gravy"?'"</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry, something disappeared in my above post. The sentence was, &#8220;There&#8217;s a big difference between &#8216;But I thought it was gravy!&#8217; and &#8216;How do you spell &#8220;gravy&#8221;?&#8217;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Gyp Oriens</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114#comment-9828</link>
		<dc:creator>Gyp Oriens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 07:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>"'Meant to be "gravy"'â€“ as in advertised as gravy-but not. More some gloopy disgusting-appearing other substance. He is thinking about the word itself- but I didnâ€™t make that clear."

No, he's not thinking about the word at all. There's a big difference between "But I thought it was gravy!" You say, "soaked in what Meron assumed was meant to be gravy." He's NOT thinking about the word "gravy" at all! He's thinking about what is "supposed to be gravy [but wasn't]," which is an ENTIRELY different case.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;&#8216;Meant to be &#8220;gravy&#8221;&#8216;â€“ as in advertised as gravy-but not. More some gloopy disgusting-appearing other substance. He is thinking about the word itself- but I didnâ€™t make that clear.&#8221;</p>
<p>No, he&#8217;s not thinking about the word at all. There&#8217;s a big difference between &#8220;But I thought it was gravy!&#8221; You say, &#8220;soaked in what Meron assumed was meant to be gravy.&#8221; He&#8217;s NOT thinking about the word &#8220;gravy&#8221; at all! He&#8217;s thinking about what is &#8220;supposed to be gravy [but wasn't],&#8221; which is an ENTIRELY different case.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole L.</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114#comment-9819</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 09 Feb 2007 00:16:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114/#comment-9819</guid>
		<description>The 'spotty lads' made me smile, but it was rough getting there through all the grammatical errors already mentioned above. 

I was very lost by the last sentence however, due to lack of commas and what I think are superfluous semicolons, but I'm not sure what you were going for. It sounds like the attacker is decorating the bar-hand's face (note apostrophe) rather than the gravy-soaked meat I think you intended. 

Judgement, according to the American Heritage Dictionary, is an allowable spelling variation on judgment, though your spell-checker won't tell you so. 

I think you should keep trying, after some review of grammatical rules, because it seems that you may be able to write funny stories, which in my opinion is not all that common a skill.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The &#8217;spotty lads&#8217; made me smile, but it was rough getting there through all the grammatical errors already mentioned above. </p>
<p>I was very lost by the last sentence however, due to lack of commas and what I think are superfluous semicolons, but I&#8217;m not sure what you were going for. It sounds like the attacker is decorating the bar-hand&#8217;s face (note apostrophe) rather than the gravy-soaked meat I think you intended. </p>
<p>Judgement, according to the American Heritage Dictionary, is an allowable spelling variation on judgment, though your spell-checker won&#8217;t tell you so. </p>
<p>I think you should keep trying, after some review of grammatical rules, because it seems that you may be able to write funny stories, which in my opinion is not all that common a skill.</p>
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		<title>By: Debbie White</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114#comment-9810</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 23:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree with everything Gyp said.

Taensray, please read the following statement out loud for the whole world to hear:

&lt;blockquote&gt;His breath, foul and odorous, forced itself, against Meronâ€™s best judgements, up into Meronâ€™s already depressed nasal cavities.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It's a very jerky sentence, and it's difficult to keep track of what's going on.  Why not, "His foul and odorous breath forced itself up into Meron's already depressed nasal cavities against Meron's best judgments."?  (You misspelled "judgments", by the way.)

Also, how many judgments is Meron giving on the subject?  Or did you mean "better judgment"?

&lt;blockquote&gt;As his vision swam, and green toxic stars floated before his intoxicated face, Meron cursed, and choked on the ale heâ€™d been attempting to drink for the better part of an hour.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

You overuse commas here and miss putting one where it is needed.  I believe you mean "As his vision swam and green, toxic stars floated before his intoxicated face, Meron cursed and choked on the ale heâ€™d been attempting to drink for the better part of an hour."  I'd suggest dropping the "as" and making it into two sentences, otherwise you have his vision swimming, stars in front of his face, him cursing, and him choking on ale all happening at once.  Also, is Meron choking on the ale because he's cursing or is he cursing because the ale is bad?  Using correct grammar will help clear that up.

Personally, I'm also a little vague on what you're trying to convey by calling the stars toxic.

You use so many adverbs that it's noticeable to the reader. 
&lt;blockquote&gt;...toothily...sarcastically...decidedly...cheerfully... philosophically...good-naturedly...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Your writing will come across as stronger if you can convey that information through word choice and description.  What dialogue could you give Meron that would convey that the words were said sarcastically...and if the dialogue already does, then you do you really need to tell us the obvious by using the adverb as well?

There are more grammar errors, but I'll leave those to you or another critiquer.

It's not clear if the spotty lads have physical spots or if you are referring to the toxic stars.  You might want to clarify that.

The last sentence needs to be straightened out for it to read clearly.  Right now, I'm not sure what is going where or how.  I agree that "gravy" in the last sentence doesn't need quotes in the way you are currently using it.

Finally--this is really not my specialty as I've never gotten drunk in my life--but if the ale is so bad that Meron can't choke down one cup in over an hour, how come he's so drunk that his vision is swimming and he's seeing stars?

I suspect there is something fun in this story, but all the grammar errors turn me off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with everything Gyp said.</p>
<p>Taensray, please read the following statement out loud for the whole world to hear:</p>
<blockquote><p>His breath, foul and odorous, forced itself, against Meronâ€™s best judgements, up into Meronâ€™s already depressed nasal cavities.</p></blockquote>
<p>It&#8217;s a very jerky sentence, and it&#8217;s difficult to keep track of what&#8217;s going on.  Why not, &#8220;His foul and odorous breath forced itself up into Meron&#8217;s already depressed nasal cavities against Meron&#8217;s best judgments.&#8221;?  (You misspelled &#8220;judgments&#8221;, by the way.)</p>
<p>Also, how many judgments is Meron giving on the subject?  Or did you mean &#8220;better judgment&#8221;?</p>
<blockquote><p>As his vision swam, and green toxic stars floated before his intoxicated face, Meron cursed, and choked on the ale heâ€™d been attempting to drink for the better part of an hour.</p></blockquote>
<p>You overuse commas here and miss putting one where it is needed.  I believe you mean &#8220;As his vision swam and green, toxic stars floated before his intoxicated face, Meron cursed and choked on the ale heâ€™d been attempting to drink for the better part of an hour.&#8221;  I&#8217;d suggest dropping the &#8220;as&#8221; and making it into two sentences, otherwise you have his vision swimming, stars in front of his face, him cursing, and him choking on ale all happening at once.  Also, is Meron choking on the ale because he&#8217;s cursing or is he cursing because the ale is bad?  Using correct grammar will help clear that up.</p>
<p>Personally, I&#8217;m also a little vague on what you&#8217;re trying to convey by calling the stars toxic.</p>
<p>You use so many adverbs that it&#8217;s noticeable to the reader. </p>
<blockquote><p>&#8230;toothily&#8230;sarcastically&#8230;decidedly&#8230;cheerfully&#8230; philosophically&#8230;good-naturedly&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Your writing will come across as stronger if you can convey that information through word choice and description.  What dialogue could you give Meron that would convey that the words were said sarcastically&#8230;and if the dialogue already does, then you do you really need to tell us the obvious by using the adverb as well?</p>
<p>There are more grammar errors, but I&#8217;ll leave those to you or another critiquer.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s not clear if the spotty lads have physical spots or if you are referring to the toxic stars.  You might want to clarify that.</p>
<p>The last sentence needs to be straightened out for it to read clearly.  Right now, I&#8217;m not sure what is going where or how.  I agree that &#8220;gravy&#8221; in the last sentence doesn&#8217;t need quotes in the way you are currently using it.</p>
<p>Finally&#8211;this is really not my specialty as I&#8217;ve never gotten drunk in my life&#8211;but if the ale is so bad that Meron can&#8217;t choke down one cup in over an hour, how come he&#8217;s so drunk that his vision is swimming and he&#8217;s seeing stars?</p>
<p>I suspect there is something fun in this story, but all the grammar errors turn me off.</p>
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		<title>By: Taensray Lewins</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114#comment-9798</link>
		<dc:creator>Taensray Lewins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 17:49:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114/#comment-9798</guid>
		<description>Oh right, okay.
The "against Meron's best judgements" and the "depressed nasal cavities" was intended. I don't know how to explain it, really.
Toxic and intoxicated-bad proofreading is all I can say. Sorry!
"Meant to be 'gravy' "-- as in advertised as gravy-but not. More some gloopy disgusting-appearing other substance. He is thinking about the word itself- but I didn't make that clear.
Totally agree with your last statement, "a comma and then a colon" with regards to the last paragraph.
Anyway, I'll try to improve it. Oh, this was meant to be, not hilarious, but hopefully slightly amusing-I doubt that affects your review in any way, though.
Cheers!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh right, okay.<br />
The &#8220;against Meron&#8217;s best judgements&#8221; and the &#8220;depressed nasal cavities&#8221; was intended. I don&#8217;t know how to explain it, really.<br />
Toxic and intoxicated-bad proofreading is all I can say. Sorry!<br />
&#8220;Meant to be &#8216;gravy&#8217; &#8220;&#8211; as in advertised as gravy-but not. More some gloopy disgusting-appearing other substance. He is thinking about the word itself- but I didn&#8217;t make that clear.<br />
Totally agree with your last statement, &#8220;a comma and then a colon&#8221; with regards to the last paragraph.<br />
Anyway, I&#8217;ll try to improve it. Oh, this was meant to be, not hilarious, but hopefully slightly amusing-I doubt that affects your review in any way, though.<br />
Cheers!</p>
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		<title>By: Gyp Oriens</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114#comment-9781</link>
		<dc:creator>Gyp Oriens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 08 Feb 2007 08:02:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-114/#comment-9781</guid>
		<description>"His breath, foul and odorous, forced itself, against Meronâ€™s best judgements, up into Meronâ€™s already depressed nasal cavities."

AWKWARD SENTENCE. You say "against Meron's best judgements" as if he has some sort of conscious say in the matter, and the nasal cavities being "depressed" seems to unnecessarily personify them.

"As his vision swam, and green toxic stars floated before his intoxicated face, Meron cursed, and choked on the ale heâ€™d been attempting to drink for the better part of an hour."

"Toxic" appears twice in the same phrase, which seems (to me) a little repetitive. Also, when you start talking about "Spotted Ones" later in the piece for some reason I think you're referencing "green toxic stars" again. But that's probably just be me being stupid.

"...chunks of meat, soaked in what Meron assumed was meant to be 'gravy' now decorated the bar-hands face."

First of all, you skipped an apostrophe somewhere. I'm sure you can find that. Second of all, you don't need quotes around a word/phrase unless you're: 

a) Quoting a particular person or book. (Jordan's use of the word "gravy" on page 23...)
b) Quoting a familiar saying. (But hey, like they all say... "gravy!")
c) Talking about the word for purposes of definition. (Now, what do I mean when I say the word, "gravy"?)

You don't need the quotes in that instance. He's not quoting anyone, and he's not thinking about the word itself. He just thinks it's gravy. Compare. "I think that's gravy, don't you?" and "I think that's 'gravy,' don't you?" Which one's just gotten the chef's surprise, and which one is a foreign language student?

I'm a little sensitive about this right now because my Dad puts quotes around EVERYTHING, and I proofread his papers. Also, now that I look at it, your last sentence is also rather awkward. I don't know who's doing what, and those semicolons ought to be some other type of punctuation (a comma and then a colon, perhaps?) but I can't tell for sure since I don't know what the sentence says.

I'm intrigued by your idea of "spotted ones" and your characterization of Meron, but I would be afraid of running across even more awkward phrasing, were I to continue reading.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;His breath, foul and odorous, forced itself, against Meronâ€™s best judgements, up into Meronâ€™s already depressed nasal cavities.&#8221;</p>
<p>AWKWARD SENTENCE. You say &#8220;against Meron&#8217;s best judgements&#8221; as if he has some sort of conscious say in the matter, and the nasal cavities being &#8220;depressed&#8221; seems to unnecessarily personify them.</p>
<p>&#8220;As his vision swam, and green toxic stars floated before his intoxicated face, Meron cursed, and choked on the ale heâ€™d been attempting to drink for the better part of an hour.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;Toxic&#8221; appears twice in the same phrase, which seems (to me) a little repetitive. Also, when you start talking about &#8220;Spotted Ones&#8221; later in the piece for some reason I think you&#8217;re referencing &#8220;green toxic stars&#8221; again. But that&#8217;s probably just be me being stupid.</p>
<p>&#8220;&#8230;chunks of meat, soaked in what Meron assumed was meant to be &#8216;gravy&#8217; now decorated the bar-hands face.&#8221;</p>
<p>First of all, you skipped an apostrophe somewhere. I&#8217;m sure you can find that. Second of all, you don&#8217;t need quotes around a word/phrase unless you&#8217;re: </p>
<p>a) Quoting a particular person or book. (Jordan&#8217;s use of the word &#8220;gravy&#8221; on page 23&#8230;)<br />
b) Quoting a familiar saying. (But hey, like they all say&#8230; &#8220;gravy!&#8221;)<br />
c) Talking about the word for purposes of definition. (Now, what do I mean when I say the word, &#8220;gravy&#8221;?)</p>
<p>You don&#8217;t need the quotes in that instance. He&#8217;s not quoting anyone, and he&#8217;s not thinking about the word itself. He just thinks it&#8217;s gravy. Compare. &#8220;I think that&#8217;s gravy, don&#8217;t you?&#8221; and &#8220;I think that&#8217;s &#8216;gravy,&#8217; don&#8217;t you?&#8221; Which one&#8217;s just gotten the chef&#8217;s surprise, and which one is a foreign language student?</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a little sensitive about this right now because my Dad puts quotes around EVERYTHING, and I proofread his papers. Also, now that I look at it, your last sentence is also rather awkward. I don&#8217;t know who&#8217;s doing what, and those semicolons ought to be some other type of punctuation (a comma and then a colon, perhaps?) but I can&#8217;t tell for sure since I don&#8217;t know what the sentence says.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m intrigued by your idea of &#8220;spotted ones&#8221; and your characterization of Meron, but I would be afraid of running across even more awkward phrasing, were I to continue reading.</p>
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