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	<title>Comments on: Critique #172 &#8212; Sengei Tawn #2</title>
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	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 12:26:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Christopher M Hyland</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-44251</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher M Hyland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 13:59:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-44251</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I know someone who used to use them to excess, too, but they're good when used right.

I have quite a few ... not problems, as such, but ... I find I'm unsure of how to use certain grammar techniques, sometimes.

There are, of course, quite a few things on the Internet to help, but I've found (to my surprise) the thing that's helped the most has been a podcast called "&lt;a href="http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/default.aspx" rel="nofollow"&gt;Grammar Girl's Guide to Grammar&lt;/a&gt;" -- in which she covers just about everything in a small weekly chunk, and listeners can send in queries, etc.

Some of them are no-brainers, but most are things that you'd be surprised how many people (myself included) get wrong on a day-to-day process. "Grammar Myths" are covered, too -- for example, it is actually OK to split infinitives ("to boldly go", is now allowed, rather than just "to go") ... although she does mention that so many people still think it's wrong, that you probably shouldn't use it anyway!

I'm not one for pimping things, but it is actually a good 5 mins well spent :)

Best,</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I know someone who used to use them to excess, too, but they&#8217;re good when used right.</p>
<p>I have quite a few &#8230; not problems, as such, but &#8230; I find I&#8217;m unsure of how to use certain grammar techniques, sometimes.</p>
<p>There are, of course, quite a few things on the Internet to help, but I&#8217;ve found (to my surprise) the thing that&#8217;s helped the most has been a podcast called &#8220;<a href="http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/default.aspx" rel="nofollow">Grammar Girl&#8217;s Guide to Grammar</a>&#8221; &#8212; in which she covers just about everything in a small weekly chunk, and listeners can send in queries, etc.</p>
<p>Some of them are no-brainers, but most are things that you&#8217;d be surprised how many people (myself included) get wrong on a day-to-day process. &#8220;Grammar Myths&#8221; are covered, too &#8212; for example, it is actually OK to split infinitives (&#8221;to boldly go&#8221;, is now allowed, rather than just &#8220;to go&#8221;) &#8230; although she does mention that so many people still think it&#8217;s wrong, that you probably shouldn&#8217;t use it anyway!</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not one for pimping things, but it is actually a good 5 mins well spent <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Best,</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Sengei</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-44220</link>
		<dc:creator>Sengei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2007 09:47:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-44220</guid>
		<description>Hi Chris, 
The single dash was actually a computer translation problem when I sent it in; it was supposed to be an "em" dash (the long dash). I was using it in that sentence to see if it was a problem or not. I often include bold things in my 13-lines just to see the response (am trying to learn). I used to type for a professor who loved em dashes, to the point of using them in every other sentence! So, I am particularly gun shy of them. Yet, they work so well, sometimes. Would love to know more about their use, if anyone has thoughts. Thanks, Chris. Look forward to reading some of your work!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Chris,<br />
The single dash was actually a computer translation problem when I sent it in; it was supposed to be an &#8220;em&#8221; dash (the long dash). I was using it in that sentence to see if it was a problem or not. I often include bold things in my 13-lines just to see the response (am trying to learn). I used to type for a professor who loved em dashes, to the point of using them in every other sentence! So, I am particularly gun shy of them. Yet, they work so well, sometimes. Would love to know more about their use, if anyone has thoughts. Thanks, Chris. Look forward to reading some of your work!</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Christopher M Hyland</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-44140</link>
		<dc:creator>Christopher M Hyland</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2007 19:26:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-44140</guid>
		<description>Hi Sengei,

I quite liked it -- particularly with the refinements. Were I in charge of page-turning though, there are a few nitpicking things that I might have held against you. Most things have been covered by the others, but...

&lt;blockquote&gt;
on its tarp &lt;strong&gt;cover-the&lt;/strong&gt; only other comfort sharing his night vigil&lt;/blockquote&gt;

When reading, it can be slightly confusing (if you're dumb like me, and I'd imagine some people are) to read what I've bold-ed. I think it's better when using dashes (forget the proper name) to separate thoughts, to do a double dash, which the computer automatically turns into a -- ... It's easier to read, and doesn't give the editor a headache! That's the last thing you want!

Leave a gap between the words and do a -- basically, is my advice :D

Re-reading your 13-liner, I realised that my other nitpick was me mis-reading! Good work. Hope I've helped a little and haven't been too annoying.

~Chris</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sengei,</p>
<p>I quite liked it &#8212; particularly with the refinements. Were I in charge of page-turning though, there are a few nitpicking things that I might have held against you. Most things have been covered by the others, but&#8230;</p>
<blockquote><p>
on its tarp <strong>cover-the</strong> only other comfort sharing his night vigil</p></blockquote>
<p>When reading, it can be slightly confusing (if you&#8217;re dumb like me, and I&#8217;d imagine some people are) to read what I&#8217;ve bold-ed. I think it&#8217;s better when using dashes (forget the proper name) to separate thoughts, to do a double dash, which the computer automatically turns into a &#8212; &#8230; It&#8217;s easier to read, and doesn&#8217;t give the editor a headache! That&#8217;s the last thing you want!</p>
<p>Leave a gap between the words and do a &#8212; basically, is my advice <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Re-reading your 13-liner, I realised that my other nitpick was me mis-reading! Good work. Hope I&#8217;ve helped a little and haven&#8217;t been too annoying.</p>
<p>~Chris</p>
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		<title>By: Beth S.</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-41035</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 14:57:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-41035</guid>
		<description>Well, like I said, I think the mountain description can stay. It's the the following line about the starlight that isn't there that can safely be cut. :)

I also think the part about the tents being arranged in military order is a good detail to keep, because it says something about the nature of the camp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, like I said, I think the mountain description can stay. It&#8217;s the the following line about the starlight that isn&#8217;t there that can safely be cut. <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I also think the part about the tents being arranged in military order is a good detail to keep, because it says something about the nature of the camp.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Sengei</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-41033</link>
		<dc:creator>Sengei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-41033</guid>
		<description>Thanks all, so much! This really helps. It's a place to try daring things and see if they pass or not and why. I'm learning a lot from this exercise!

Beth, it's so hard to cut the visual, but I see what you are saying. I left that description of the mountains in to see what you all would say. You are right about it being too wordy. Is all much tighter now. Cheers all!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks all, so much! This really helps. It&#8217;s a place to try daring things and see if they pass or not and why. I&#8217;m learning a lot from this exercise!</p>
<p>Beth, it&#8217;s so hard to cut the visual, but I see what you are saying. I left that description of the mountains in to see what you all would say. You are right about it being too wordy. Is all much tighter now. Cheers all!</p>
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		<title>By: Beth S.</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-40910</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:58:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-40910</guid>
		<description>That's an improvement. It contains a hook now, in that last line. 

I wonder if you could get some sort of hook into the first line as well.

I still think the tension is diluted from too much description sandwiched in. And this is coming from someone who likes description and writes a fair amount of it herself. But the thing is, it needs paring down here. "Faintly luminescent mountains drew a chaotic horizon in the distance" is wonderful and I'd keep that, but "despite the starlight dampened by low-hanging clouds" is wordy and completely unnecessary besides, since we already know it's cloudy (after all, it's snowing). And it causes the reader to imagine starlight, then have to mentally erase it from the image you're painting.

Also, this is the kind of opening that works great in a movie, but books aren't movies; the written story has different requirements. One of those is reader involvement, and this impersonal, omniscient approach is death to that. For this reader, anyway.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s an improvement. It contains a hook now, in that last line. </p>
<p>I wonder if you could get some sort of hook into the first line as well.</p>
<p>I still think the tension is diluted from too much description sandwiched in. And this is coming from someone who likes description and writes a fair amount of it herself. But the thing is, it needs paring down here. &#8220;Faintly luminescent mountains drew a chaotic horizon in the distance&#8221; is wonderful and I&#8217;d keep that, but &#8220;despite the starlight dampened by low-hanging clouds&#8221; is wordy and completely unnecessary besides, since we already know it&#8217;s cloudy (after all, it&#8217;s snowing). And it causes the reader to imagine starlight, then have to mentally erase it from the image you&#8217;re painting.</p>
<p>Also, this is the kind of opening that works great in a movie, but books aren&#8217;t movies; the written story has different requirements. One of those is reader involvement, and this impersonal, omniscient approach is death to that. For this reader, anyway.</p>
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		<title>By: Seaboe Emm</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-40897</link>
		<dc:creator>Seaboe Emm</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:09:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-40897</guid>
		<description>I think the second version is better than the first (removing the distracting wad in the guard's crotch is a huge help).  However, I also think that some of the description in paragraph two can go.  Do we need to know there are dozens of tents?  Do we need to know they're militarily neat?  Does the description of the horizon add anything?

Seaboe</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the second version is better than the first (removing the distracting wad in the guard&#8217;s crotch is a huge help).  However, I also think that some of the description in paragraph two can go.  Do we need to know there are dozens of tents?  Do we need to know they&#8217;re militarily neat?  Does the description of the horizon add anything?</p>
<p>Seaboe</p>
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		<title>By: Sengei</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-40802</link>
		<dc:creator>Sengei</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2007 18:51:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-40802</guid>
		<description>Beth, Thanks for your comments. I really want to start this story with an unimportant character and with a quiet before the storm. 

Another challenge: How does one swear in an alien language? After all, I DID say â€œhe swore.â€? My aliens see soft words as irritatingâ€¦thusâ€¦â€™chaad!â€™ instead of ch..it! or f..ck! Notice the harder sounding endings of OUR swear words. Are readers ethnocentric? Ah. So they are. What to do? What to do?

Iâ€™ve decided on omniscient POV. And actually, I am not in the mind of my protagonist until next scene! Maybe am making this harder than needs to be. I donâ€™t want to be in the guardâ€™s mind. I just want to show whatâ€™s going on before my protagonist shows up. So, here is a revision, which probably has a whole other host of problems. 


The flames hissed and sputtered as snowflakes drifted into the fire from out of the black night. The guard winced, his breath adding rime to the edge of his furred hood. Swearing, he reluctantly spun away, his steps crunching noisily in the snow towards the cliff edge. 

Faintly luminescent mountains drew a chaotic horizon in the distance, despite the starlight dampened by low-hanging clouds as the guard wrestled his zipper open and sighed, a stream of steaming urine drilling miniature canyons at his feet. â€œAhh!â€? he groaned in relief while glancing down into the canyon below. He stepped back nervously and threw a glance behind him, where dozens of tents arranged in military order lay quiescent. The guard shoved his privates back into his pants and turned back to his post, his footfalls fading into the distance. 

Just below the cliff edge, a dozen bodies flattened tightly against a wall of ice-encrusted rock.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beth, Thanks for your comments. I really want to start this story with an unimportant character and with a quiet before the storm. </p>
<p>Another challenge: How does one swear in an alien language? After all, I DID say â€œhe swore.â€? My aliens see soft words as irritatingâ€¦thusâ€¦â€™chaad!â€™ instead of ch..it! or f..ck! Notice the harder sounding endings of OUR swear words. Are readers ethnocentric? Ah. So they are. What to do? What to do?</p>
<p>Iâ€™ve decided on omniscient POV. And actually, I am not in the mind of my protagonist until next scene! Maybe am making this harder than needs to be. I donâ€™t want to be in the guardâ€™s mind. I just want to show whatâ€™s going on before my protagonist shows up. So, here is a revision, which probably has a whole other host of problems. </p>
<p>The flames hissed and sputtered as snowflakes drifted into the fire from out of the black night. The guard winced, his breath adding rime to the edge of his furred hood. Swearing, he reluctantly spun away, his steps crunching noisily in the snow towards the cliff edge. </p>
<p>Faintly luminescent mountains drew a chaotic horizon in the distance, despite the starlight dampened by low-hanging clouds as the guard wrestled his zipper open and sighed, a stream of steaming urine drilling miniature canyons at his feet. â€œAhh!â€? he groaned in relief while glancing down into the canyon below. He stepped back nervously and threw a glance behind him, where dozens of tents arranged in military order lay quiescent. The guard shoved his privates back into his pants and turned back to his post, his footfalls fading into the distance. </p>
<p>Just below the cliff edge, a dozen bodies flattened tightly against a wall of ice-encrusted rock.</p>
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		<title>By: Beth S.</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-40663</link>
		<dc:creator>Beth S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 22:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-40663</guid>
		<description>What everyone else said. Overladen with description; no conflict. No real sense of a story beginning.

Try opening with the main character. Get us into his or her head. Show him or her faced with an apparently unsolvable dilemma. That's always a good place to start.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What everyone else said. Overladen with description; no conflict. No real sense of a story beginning.</p>
<p>Try opening with the main character. Get us into his or her head. Show him or her faced with an apparently unsolvable dilemma. That&#8217;s always a good place to start.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172#comment-40653</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Sep 2007 19:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-172/#comment-40653</guid>
		<description>Hi Sengei,

Sorry I called you Chad! I am grateful I didn't call 'Chaad' because apparently that is a swear word in some cultures.

Adam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Sengei,</p>
<p>Sorry I called you Chad! I am grateful I didn&#8217;t call &#8216;Chaad&#8217; because apparently that is a swear word in some cultures.</p>
<p>Adam</p>
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