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	<title>Comments on: Critique #33 &#8212; Charles E. Dunkley</title>
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	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:10:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/comment-page-1/#comment-1841</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 19:47:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/#comment-1841</guid>
		<description>Kevin,

Thank you for your comments.  You've given me some things to chew over regarding how to describe the Hags beyond the generic description I've so far included at the beginning of the story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>Thank you for your comments.  You&#8217;ve given me some things to chew over regarding how to describe the Hags beyond the generic description I&#8217;ve so far included at the beginning of the story.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Andrew Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/comment-page-1/#comment-1840</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Andrew Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 06:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/#comment-1840</guid>
		<description>Charles,

There's some nice action and drama here, but since we've got a modern setting with video and whatnot, there's a definite problem in that there's an unanswered question in the reader's mind-certainly this reader's mind--which is: What in the hell are the hags wearing?

Either he's seeing Bea Arthur in her birthday suit and reacting to THAT, or else the hags are wearing medievalesque rags and sackcloth, or else they're in some sort of thrift store clothes.  What is it?

Not looking at their chests gives this an overly demure Boys Adventure feel for me.  Certainly we're in your narrator's viewpoint, and that's fine, but we do need to know more of what he's seeing, even if it's just what he's averting his eyes from and trying to blot out of his memory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Charles,</p>
<p>There&#8217;s some nice action and drama here, but since we&#8217;ve got a modern setting with video and whatnot, there&#8217;s a definite problem in that there&#8217;s an unanswered question in the reader&#8217;s mind-certainly this reader&#8217;s mind&#8211;which is: What in the hell are the hags wearing?</p>
<p>Either he&#8217;s seeing Bea Arthur in her birthday suit and reacting to THAT, or else the hags are wearing medievalesque rags and sackcloth, or else they&#8217;re in some sort of thrift store clothes.  What is it?</p>
<p>Not looking at their chests gives this an overly demure Boys Adventure feel for me.  Certainly we&#8217;re in your narrator&#8217;s viewpoint, and that&#8217;s fine, but we do need to know more of what he&#8217;s seeing, even if it&#8217;s just what he&#8217;s averting his eyes from and trying to blot out of his memory.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/comment-page-1/#comment-1839</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/#comment-1839</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;If we are in Rennâ€™s head, I still find this â€˜tellingâ€™. Forex I would rather some internal thoughts such as - Ugly sons of bitches, with all that wizened flesh and their eyes all every whichway. No wonder the suits named them hags. â€” Or words to that effect. Now Iâ€™m truly â€˜inâ€™ Rennâ€™s head, experiencing what heâ€™s seeing.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I guess this section of my story is still an omniscient perspective:

&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;em&gt;In a recent briefing, before boarding the ship, he had been shown some stills.  Video, he had been told, was almost non-existent.  The pictures had not done their ugliness any justice.  The Suits had rattled off the scientific name for the species, but Renn, like everyone, else called them Hags, because they looked sort of like wizened old, leathery-faced hags.
&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It is progress for me, however.  In a previous draft, I simply relayed information about the Hags and the general conflict with them.  At least here, I have limited my interruption to things specific to Renn. :-)

As there is a second person with Renn at this point, I may be able to bring them into the story earlier and use an interaction with him to relay some of the same information as above.

How to do that without falling into the trap mentioned in a commentary to another of the 13 line stories -- the "as you know Bob" trap -- will be an interesting challenge.

I like the sense of aloneness I present with Renn at this beginning, even though there is someone with him, as this story is about Renn's inner struggle with his guilt over the loss of his soldiers in a previous war, and his attempts to keep the same fate from befalling the soldiers with him now.

But I can see, having only these 13 lines, where I give the impression that Renn is indeed alone.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>If we are in Rennâ€™s head, I still find this â€˜tellingâ€™. Forex I would rather some internal thoughts such as - Ugly sons of bitches, with all that wizened flesh and their eyes all every whichway. No wonder the suits named them hags. â€” Or words to that effect. Now Iâ€™m truly â€˜inâ€™ Rennâ€™s head, experiencing what heâ€™s seeing.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I guess this section of my story is still an omniscient perspective:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>In a recent briefing, before boarding the ship, he had been shown some stills.  Video, he had been told, was almost non-existent.  The pictures had not done their ugliness any justice.  The Suits had rattled off the scientific name for the species, but Renn, like everyone, else called them Hags, because they looked sort of like wizened old, leathery-faced hags.<br />
</em></p></blockquote>
<p>It is progress for me, however.  In a previous draft, I simply relayed information about the Hags and the general conflict with them.  At least here, I have limited my interruption to things specific to Renn. <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
As there is a second person with Renn at this point, I may be able to bring them into the story earlier and use an interaction with him to relay some of the same information as above.</p>
<p>How to do that without falling into the trap mentioned in a commentary to another of the 13 line stories &#8212; the &#8220;as you know Bob&#8221; trap &#8212; will be an interesting challenge.</p>
<p>I like the sense of aloneness I present with Renn at this beginning, even though there is someone with him, as this story is about Renn&#8217;s inner struggle with his guilt over the loss of his soldiers in a previous war, and his attempts to keep the same fate from befalling the soldiers with him now.</p>
<p>But I can see, having only these 13 lines, where I give the impression that Renn is indeed alone.</p>
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		<title>By: makoiyi</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/comment-page-1/#comment-1838</link>
		<dc:creator>makoiyi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 14:05:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/#comment-1838</guid>
		<description>Okay, but from my perspective, and this is mine, no one else's :)


My god, they are ugly!

If we are in Renn's head, I still find this 'telling'. Forex I would rather some internal thoughts such as - Ugly sons of bitches, with all that wizened flesh and their eyes all every whichway. No wonder the suits named them hags. --- Or words to that effect. Now I'm truly 'in' Renn's head, experiencing what he's seeing.

No, you don't have to tell me he's a soldier before the fourteenth line, but, that first line is still going to throw me. If there is someone else present then just maybe a glance from Renn toward him/her would clarify matters?

Sue</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, but from my perspective, and this is mine, no one else&#8217;s <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>My god, they are ugly!</p>
<p>If we are in Renn&#8217;s head, I still find this &#8216;telling&#8217;. Forex I would rather some internal thoughts such as - Ugly sons of bitches, with all that wizened flesh and their eyes all every whichway. No wonder the suits named them hags. &#8212; Or words to that effect. Now I&#8217;m truly &#8216;in&#8217; Renn&#8217;s head, experiencing what he&#8217;s seeing.</p>
<p>No, you don&#8217;t have to tell me he&#8217;s a soldier before the fourteenth line, but, that first line is still going to throw me. If there is someone else present then just maybe a glance from Renn toward him/her would clarify matters?</p>
<p>Sue</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/comment-page-1/#comment-1837</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:55:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/#comment-1837</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;My reasons for that are that using speech gives an indication that someone else is present, and they arenâ€™t, and the â€˜finallyâ€™ fools me into thinking Iâ€™ve missed out a whole chunk of narrative.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

First off, I would like to thank you for your comments.

I started this short story with the opening line of dialogue to let the reader know that, while we are not coming in at the beginning of the event Renn is involved in, we are coming in at the point where his involvement begins to have an impact on the event taking place.

Will it help to know that line 14 reveals that Renn is not alone and that he is indeed a soldier?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Again Iâ€™m wondering where everyone else is. And, if this is a spaceship - video? - seems too old-fashioned a term. Also, you â€˜tellâ€™ me they are ugly. Let me decide that for myself by your description. The comma is also misplaced after â€˜everyoneâ€™.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I used "video" because it seemed the simplest word to get across the image of moving pictures.  While I can see where it gives the impression of outdated technology that would seem out of place on a ship advanced enough to be traveling through space, another single word description didn't pop into my head.  To me, Video is kind of generic.  After all, what is DVD but Digital Video.  Even though the technology has changed and improved dramatically, the Video classification has been carried forward.

That said, I would have no problem replacing the word video with a more advanced sounding term.

As for the description of the Hags, this short story has become sort of a writing exercise for me.  What I am trying to do is write this story solely from Renn's perspective.  The reader will only see, hear, smell, feel, experience and know what is happening filtered through Renn.

I am trying to avoid any interruptions from the author.  I don't want there to be any omniscient narrative.  As such, the reader is told the Hags are ugly and look like wizened old leathery-faced hags because that is how Renn describes them.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Whereas this is a good â€˜hookâ€™ to keep me reading Iâ€™m wondering why he thinks this. At this point I donâ€™t know who he is, why the hags are aboard his ship, why no one else is around, and â€˜whatâ€™ Renn is himself. Is he just a passenger? Is he crew, is he a soldier?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, as I mentioned above, by line 14 you know that Renn is not alone and that he is a soldier.  By the end of page 2, the reader will have learned what general type of spaceship they are on, what the situation is, and what dilemma Renn is faced with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>My reasons for that are that using speech gives an indication that someone else is present, and they arenâ€™t, and the â€˜finallyâ€™ fools me into thinking Iâ€™ve missed out a whole chunk of narrative.
</p></blockquote>
<p>First off, I would like to thank you for your comments.</p>
<p>I started this short story with the opening line of dialogue to let the reader know that, while we are not coming in at the beginning of the event Renn is involved in, we are coming in at the point where his involvement begins to have an impact on the event taking place.</p>
<p>Will it help to know that line 14 reveals that Renn is not alone and that he is indeed a soldier?</p>
<blockquote><p>Again Iâ€™m wondering where everyone else is. And, if this is a spaceship - video? - seems too old-fashioned a term. Also, you â€˜tellâ€™ me they are ugly. Let me decide that for myself by your description. The comma is also misplaced after â€˜everyoneâ€™.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I used &#8220;video&#8221; because it seemed the simplest word to get across the image of moving pictures.  While I can see where it gives the impression of outdated technology that would seem out of place on a ship advanced enough to be traveling through space, another single word description didn&#8217;t pop into my head.  To me, Video is kind of generic.  After all, what is DVD but Digital Video.  Even though the technology has changed and improved dramatically, the Video classification has been carried forward.</p>
<p>That said, I would have no problem replacing the word video with a more advanced sounding term.</p>
<p>As for the description of the Hags, this short story has become sort of a writing exercise for me.  What I am trying to do is write this story solely from Renn&#8217;s perspective.  The reader will only see, hear, smell, feel, experience and know what is happening filtered through Renn.</p>
<p>I am trying to avoid any interruptions from the author.  I don&#8217;t want there to be any omniscient narrative.  As such, the reader is told the Hags are ugly and look like wizened old leathery-faced hags because that is how Renn describes them.</p>
<blockquote><p>Whereas this is a good â€˜hookâ€™ to keep me reading Iâ€™m wondering why he thinks this. At this point I donâ€™t know who he is, why the hags are aboard his ship, why no one else is around, and â€˜whatâ€™ Renn is himself. Is he just a passenger? Is he crew, is he a soldier?
</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, as I mentioned above, by line 14 you know that Renn is not alone and that he is a soldier.  By the end of page 2, the reader will have learned what general type of spaceship they are on, what the situation is, and what dilemma Renn is faced with.</p>
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		<title>By: makoiyi</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/comment-page-1/#comment-1836</link>
		<dc:creator>makoiyi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Jul 2006 13:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-33/#comment-1836</guid>
		<description>Hi Charles,

First off, I like the idea of the hags, but a few things made me stumble here.

Whereas I don't mind starting in the midst of things, so to speak, the first sentence threw me.

â€œThere she is again,â€ whispered Renn, finally starting to worry.  â€œDamn, sheâ€™s good!â€

My reasons for that are that using speech gives an indication that someone else is present, and they aren't, and the 'finally' fools me into thinking I've missed out a whole chunk of narrative.

You know youâ€™re not making it off this bucket alive.

I'm not getting any sense of 'place'.  &lt;em&gt;bucket&lt;/em&gt; isn't really definitive. I kind of presumed spaceship, but then I'm wondering where everyone else is and why he's fighting this hag alone. So it might be 'ship' of the conventional kind.

My god, they are ugly!  Renn was just beginning to get used to seeing the Hags in person.  In a recent briefing, before boarding the ship, he had been shown some stills.  Video, he had been told, was almost non-existent.  The pictures had not done their ugliness any justice.  The Suits had rattled off the scientific name for the species, but Renn, like everyone, else called them Hags, because they looked sort of like wizened old, leathery-faced hags.

Again I'm wondering where everyone else is. And, if this is a spaceship - video? - seems too old-fashioned a term. Also, you 'tell' me they are ugly. Let me decide that for myself by your description. The comma is also misplaced after 'everyone'.

And sheâ€™s going to kill you.

Whereas this is a good 'hook' to keep me reading I'm wondering why he thinks this. At this point I don't know who he is, why the hags are aboard his ship, why no one else is around, and 'what' Renn is himself. Is he just a passenger? Is he crew, is he a soldier?

I know, it's only thirteen lines, but I'm still a trifle lost.

Hope this helps.

Sue</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Charles,</p>
<p>First off, I like the idea of the hags, but a few things made me stumble here.</p>
<p>Whereas I don&#8217;t mind starting in the midst of things, so to speak, the first sentence threw me.</p>
<p>â€œThere she is again,â€ whispered Renn, finally starting to worry.  â€œDamn, sheâ€™s good!â€</p>
<p>My reasons for that are that using speech gives an indication that someone else is present, and they aren&#8217;t, and the &#8216;finally&#8217; fools me into thinking I&#8217;ve missed out a whole chunk of narrative.</p>
<p>You know youâ€™re not making it off this bucket alive.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not getting any sense of &#8216;place&#8217;.  <em>bucket</em> isn&#8217;t really definitive. I kind of presumed spaceship, but then I&#8217;m wondering where everyone else is and why he&#8217;s fighting this hag alone. So it might be &#8217;ship&#8217; of the conventional kind.</p>
<p>My god, they are ugly!  Renn was just beginning to get used to seeing the Hags in person.  In a recent briefing, before boarding the ship, he had been shown some stills.  Video, he had been told, was almost non-existent.  The pictures had not done their ugliness any justice.  The Suits had rattled off the scientific name for the species, but Renn, like everyone, else called them Hags, because they looked sort of like wizened old, leathery-faced hags.</p>
<p>Again I&#8217;m wondering where everyone else is. And, if this is a spaceship - video? - seems too old-fashioned a term. Also, you &#8216;tell&#8217; me they are ugly. Let me decide that for myself by your description. The comma is also misplaced after &#8216;everyone&#8217;.</p>
<p>And sheâ€™s going to kill you.</p>
<p>Whereas this is a good &#8216;hook&#8217; to keep me reading I&#8217;m wondering why he thinks this. At this point I don&#8217;t know who he is, why the hags are aboard his ship, why no one else is around, and &#8216;what&#8217; Renn is himself. Is he just a passenger? Is he crew, is he a soldier?</p>
<p>I know, it&#8217;s only thirteen lines, but I&#8217;m still a trifle lost.</p>
<p>Hope this helps.</p>
<p>Sue</p>
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