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	<title>Comments on: Critique #38 &#8212; Sue Curnow</title>
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	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:11:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: makoiyi</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1989</link>
		<dc:creator>makoiyi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 Aug 2006 17:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks Jay, your thoughts are much appreciated. As an update, I took all these lovely folks' thoughts and ideas and rewrote. I have already sent it out. I will let folks know if it gets anywhere.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Jay, your thoughts are much appreciated. As an update, I took all these lovely folks&#8217; thoughts and ideas and rewrote. I have already sent it out. I will let folks know if it gets anywhere.</p>
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		<title>By: jay</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1988</link>
		<dc:creator>jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 Aug 2006 12:09:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/#comment-1988</guid>
		<description>Sue,
I really liked it and do think the animals fit in their way.  If the countryside isn't inhabited by people then animals are obviously going to be there and they have different senses to us.  So I can see how they fit.  For me it worked quite well.
The one thing I did think was a little out of context with the rest of the opening was "In the afternoon came along a wolfhound."  I didn't think this sentence seemed to sit as well woth the other ones.  Also instead of the dog just "woofing" in warning...how about it's hackles rising and a little of a snarl? In my mind that'd be a little more of a warning than a simple woof.
Sorry but that's how I see it...apart from those little things, I'm really curious about what happens next.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sue,<br />
I really liked it and do think the animals fit in their way.  If the countryside isn&#8217;t inhabited by people then animals are obviously going to be there and they have different senses to us.  So I can see how they fit.  For me it worked quite well.<br />
The one thing I did think was a little out of context with the rest of the opening was &#8220;In the afternoon came along a wolfhound.&#8221;  I didn&#8217;t think this sentence seemed to sit as well woth the other ones.  Also instead of the dog just &#8220;woofing&#8221; in warning&#8230;how about it&#8217;s hackles rising and a little of a snarl? In my mind that&#8217;d be a little more of a warning than a simple woof.<br />
Sorry but that&#8217;s how I see it&#8230;apart from those little things, I&#8217;m really curious about what happens next.</p>
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		<title>By: makoiyi</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1987</link>
		<dc:creator>makoiyi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jul 2006 18:40:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/#comment-1987</guid>
		<description>Thank you so much, Carol. I go to pieces when I write short stories. I panic at not being able to write 100,000 words and all I get is stodge. Even to me some of this sounded flat. But I liked the premise and I wanted to pursue it. It's like someone says to me, you can only use the bottom eighth of a canvas. So it's a skill I've been trying to get better at, although I know my natural bent is novels.

Thanks for the suggestions. Off to see what I can do.

Sue</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you so much, Carol. I go to pieces when I write short stories. I panic at not being able to write 100,000 words and all I get is stodge. Even to me some of this sounded flat. But I liked the premise and I wanted to pursue it. It&#8217;s like someone says to me, you can only use the bottom eighth of a canvas. So it&#8217;s a skill I&#8217;ve been trying to get better at, although I know my natural bent is novels.</p>
<p>Thanks for the suggestions. Off to see what I can do.</p>
<p>Sue</p>
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		<title>By: Carol Berg</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1986</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Berg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Jul 2006 16:58:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/#comment-1986</guid>
		<description>OK, I like the story hook and the image you put in my mind, but I'm going to hit you with some very nitty wording details. You are trying to set a vivid scene and these are some things to consider.  Make your language vivid too - especially verbs - and lose some of the bland details of moment-by-moment movement and time accounting.

Details:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Within a rock grew a crystal. Adamantine and amethyst, it called to be made whole,&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Referent for &lt;em&gt;it&lt;/em&gt; - the rock, the crystal?  If you lost the inverted wording of the first sentence, the referent would be a bit clearer, and I don't think you would lose impact.  "A crystal grew within a rock..."

&lt;em&gt;Called &lt;/em&gt; is a very bland word;  is there some kind of inanimate passion involved here? is this a need that implies &lt;em&gt;yearning &lt;/em&gt;or something more painful, implying &lt;em&gt;crying out&lt;/em&gt;?  Is there a reason to hide to what or to whom this crystal is calling, because to me calling implies a receiver, whereas crying out can imply "to whomever is out there to hear". (See?  I told you.  Nits and nuances.)


&lt;blockquote&gt;At the start of a fresh May morning on the hills above the cliff fortress of Tintagel, it began its call &lt;/blockquote&gt;

&lt;em&gt;May morning&lt;/em&gt; is almost a synonym for &lt;em&gt;fresh&lt;/em&gt;.  You could just leave May morning without the fresh and the sentence would not sound so redundant;

Are mornings &lt;em&gt;on&lt;/em&gt; hills?  Morning &lt;em&gt;light&lt;/em&gt; lies on hills, but we tend to use &lt;em&gt;in&lt;/em&gt; the hills to refer to the encompassing environment;

&lt;em&gt;it began its call&lt;/em&gt; - is it important that the call &lt;em&gt;began&lt;/em&gt; on this morning?  &lt;em&gt;Began&lt;/em&gt; is one of those "hedge words" that I find myself using when I am sketching a scene, sort of like &lt;em&gt;half&lt;/em&gt;, &lt;em&gt;almost&lt;/em&gt;, and such, and then I end up taking them out as I tighten the prose.  Descriptive sentences are almost always stronger without hedge words.

Consider something like:
&lt;em&gt;in the hills above Tintagel the crystal cried out
&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;purple rays bursting forth to gleam into the sky&lt;/em&gt; - &lt;em&gt;gleam into&lt;/em&gt; is awkard phrasing.  &lt;em&gt;Gleaming &lt;/em&gt;is more of a property of the article itself rather than a verb implying a motion or action;  you wouldn't say something &lt;em&gt;sparkled into the sky.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;blockquote&gt;A mouse sat upon the rock, nose twitching, whiskers shivering, until a beam touched its tail and it scurried away to find the safety of its hole. Birds flew high above the beams, but none would dare to alight upon the rock. They sensed its strangeness.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Yeah, this lost me, too.  Too DIsneyesque, unless you are really telling a sentient animal story.

&lt;blockquote&gt;In the afternoon came along a wolfhound.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The inverted wording doesn't work for me in this case, but rather saps the action.  If you want to convey an active hunting dog, use a richer verb and more straightforward wording.  &lt;em&gt;The wolfhound bounded across the hill in the afternoon light.&lt;/em&gt; or some such. If you are trying for a prophetic or loremaster's tone, and really want the inverted wording, just lose the &lt;em&gt;along&lt;/em&gt; and maybe find a better word than the bland &lt;em&gt;came&lt;/em&gt;.


&lt;blockquote&gt;The great grey beast trotted ahead of his master, sniffing the ground as he went.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Lose the &lt;em&gt;as he went&lt;/em&gt;. It adds nothing and saps the action.


&lt;blockquote&gt;Alain de Montlice rode a fine white stallion, and carried a hawk upon his wrist. He let fly the hawk as the hound let out a deep woof of warning. At once the houndâ€™s master dismounted, letting his stallionâ€™s reins trail as the horse began to crop grass. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

I like the hawk.

Even though we think of &lt;em&gt;as&lt;/em&gt; as implying simultaneity, it doesn't quite.  The second sentence sounds like releasing the hawk is a result of the dog's bark or as if the two events are connected in some way other than time.  If the time connection is coincidence, then word it so.

&lt;em&gt;At once&lt;/em&gt; -  Lose it.  If you just say the man dismounted, the proximity to the prior event implies that it happened next.  If there is some &lt;em&gt;urgency&lt;/em&gt; to his dismounting, then use words that give us a reason for it. (A threat would be more likely to keep him in the saddle for a quick getaway, right?)


&lt;blockquote&gt;He walked to where his hound stood&lt;/blockquote&gt;

More bland words, describing simple movements.  Show us his state of mind.  "A sharp command brought the dog to his side" or "he knelt beside the dog and ruffled his ears" or some such.
Either one communicates something about his reaction to the dog's bark and puts him at the dog's side without the boring movement.

&lt;blockquote&gt;wind blowing the dogâ€™s harsh coat backwards, his tail held aloft in alertness.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Could imply it is the wind's tail held aloft.   And &lt;em&gt;held aloft in alertness&lt;/em&gt; is a bit wordy.

But all in all, I would turn the page, too.

Hope this give you some ideas.

Carol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, I like the story hook and the image you put in my mind, but I&#8217;m going to hit you with some very nitty wording details. You are trying to set a vivid scene and these are some things to consider.  Make your language vivid too - especially verbs - and lose some of the bland details of moment-by-moment movement and time accounting.</p>
<p>Details:</p>
<blockquote><p>Within a rock grew a crystal. Adamantine and amethyst, it called to be made whole,</p></blockquote>
<p>Referent for <em>it</em> - the rock, the crystal?  If you lost the inverted wording of the first sentence, the referent would be a bit clearer, and I don&#8217;t think you would lose impact.  &#8220;A crystal grew within a rock&#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p><em>Called </em> is a very bland word;  is there some kind of inanimate passion involved here? is this a need that implies <em>yearning </em>or something more painful, implying <em>crying out</em>?  Is there a reason to hide to what or to whom this crystal is calling, because to me calling implies a receiver, whereas crying out can imply &#8220;to whomever is out there to hear&#8221;. (See?  I told you.  Nits and nuances.)</p>
<blockquote><p>At the start of a fresh May morning on the hills above the cliff fortress of Tintagel, it began its call </p></blockquote>
<p><em>May morning</em> is almost a synonym for <em>fresh</em>.  You could just leave May morning without the fresh and the sentence would not sound so redundant;</p>
<p>Are mornings <em>on</em> hills?  Morning <em>light</em> lies on hills, but we tend to use <em>in</em> the hills to refer to the encompassing environment;</p>
<p><em>it began its call</em> - is it important that the call <em>began</em> on this morning?  <em>Began</em> is one of those &#8220;hedge words&#8221; that I find myself using when I am sketching a scene, sort of like <em>half</em>, <em>almost</em>, and such, and then I end up taking them out as I tighten the prose.  Descriptive sentences are almost always stronger without hedge words.</p>
<p>Consider something like:<br />
<em>in the hills above Tintagel the crystal cried out<br />
</em></p>
<p><em>purple rays bursting forth to gleam into the sky</em> - <em>gleam into</em> is awkard phrasing.  <em>Gleaming </em>is more of a property of the article itself rather than a verb implying a motion or action;  you wouldn&#8217;t say something <em>sparkled into the sky.</em></p>
<blockquote><p>A mouse sat upon the rock, nose twitching, whiskers shivering, until a beam touched its tail and it scurried away to find the safety of its hole. Birds flew high above the beams, but none would dare to alight upon the rock. They sensed its strangeness.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Yeah, this lost me, too.  Too DIsneyesque, unless you are really telling a sentient animal story.</p>
<blockquote><p>In the afternoon came along a wolfhound.
</p></blockquote>
<p>The inverted wording doesn&#8217;t work for me in this case, but rather saps the action.  If you want to convey an active hunting dog, use a richer verb and more straightforward wording.  <em>The wolfhound bounded across the hill in the afternoon light.</em> or some such. If you are trying for a prophetic or loremaster&#8217;s tone, and really want the inverted wording, just lose the <em>along</em> and maybe find a better word than the bland <em>came</em>.</p>
<blockquote><p>The great grey beast trotted ahead of his master, sniffing the ground as he went.</p></blockquote>
<p>Lose the <em>as he went</em>. It adds nothing and saps the action.</p>
<blockquote><p>Alain de Montlice rode a fine white stallion, and carried a hawk upon his wrist. He let fly the hawk as the hound let out a deep woof of warning. At once the houndâ€™s master dismounted, letting his stallionâ€™s reins trail as the horse began to crop grass. </p></blockquote>
<p>I like the hawk.</p>
<p>Even though we think of <em>as</em> as implying simultaneity, it doesn&#8217;t quite.  The second sentence sounds like releasing the hawk is a result of the dog&#8217;s bark or as if the two events are connected in some way other than time.  If the time connection is coincidence, then word it so.</p>
<p><em>At once</em> -  Lose it.  If you just say the man dismounted, the proximity to the prior event implies that it happened next.  If there is some <em>urgency</em> to his dismounting, then use words that give us a reason for it. (A threat would be more likely to keep him in the saddle for a quick getaway, right?)</p>
<blockquote><p>He walked to where his hound stood</p></blockquote>
<p>More bland words, describing simple movements.  Show us his state of mind.  &#8220;A sharp command brought the dog to his side&#8221; or &#8220;he knelt beside the dog and ruffled his ears&#8221; or some such.<br />
Either one communicates something about his reaction to the dog&#8217;s bark and puts him at the dog&#8217;s side without the boring movement.</p>
<blockquote><p>wind blowing the dogâ€™s harsh coat backwards, his tail held aloft in alertness.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Could imply it is the wind&#8217;s tail held aloft.   And <em>held aloft in alertness</em> is a bit wordy.</p>
<p>But all in all, I would turn the page, too.</p>
<p>Hope this give you some ideas.</p>
<p>Carol</p>
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		<title>By: Sherwood Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1985</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherwood Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jul 2006 23:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/#comment-1985</guid>
		<description>Yeah, I think playing seriously shortchanges a very powerful effect (and a nifty evocation of sense of wonder, too) that you are intending.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah, I think playing seriously shortchanges a very powerful effect (and a nifty evocation of sense of wonder, too) that you are intending.</p>
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		<title>By: makoiyi</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1984</link>
		<dc:creator>makoiyi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jul 2006 18:39:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/#comment-1984</guid>
		<description>Oh. lord, now you've got me going - a strobe light but much slower? Oh, and the more in depth the better as far as I am concerned. :)  Do you remember those victorian light thingies whose name completely escapes me - that would whirl around and create pictures?

What I truly imagined would be - if you look at how an amethyst grows with all its points into prismatic shapes. If a beam of light emitted from each, it would be quite a show, and if light touched it at a certain angle it was have an almost stellar effect. I'm not thinking of 'normal' behaviour here, but I do think this is getting way too complicated and maybe I should just drop the playing sunbeams, keep it static.

Darn, I'll drop the 'woof', Kevin. I'll stick to whines and growls. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh. lord, now you&#8217;ve got me going - a strobe light but much slower? Oh, and the more in depth the better as far as I am concerned. <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  Do you remember those victorian light thingies whose name completely escapes me - that would whirl around and create pictures?</p>
<p>What I truly imagined would be - if you look at how an amethyst grows with all its points into prismatic shapes. If a beam of light emitted from each, it would be quite a show, and if light touched it at a certain angle it was have an almost stellar effect. I&#8217;m not thinking of &#8216;normal&#8217; behaviour here, but I do think this is getting way too complicated and maybe I should just drop the playing sunbeams, keep it static.</p>
<p>Darn, I&#8217;ll drop the &#8216;woof&#8217;, Kevin. I&#8217;ll stick to whines and growls. <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Sherwood Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1983</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherwood Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jul 2006 17:48:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/#comment-1983</guid>
		<description>Okay, as long as you're comfortable with this kind of in depth consideration: I don't have Kevin's problem with 'woof' but other readers might, as he suggests, so maybe others will speak up.

But I do have a problem with 'playing' beams because I'm seeing romping, wiggling and jiggling lights in a Disney sense.  What do you mean by 'playing'--shimmering?  Lacing shafts that change in hue and intensity? Rainbow flickers of light, glitters, gleams?  Sunlight doesn't play, it reflects, and beams also reflect, so what exactly is happening here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, as long as you&#8217;re comfortable with this kind of in depth consideration: I don&#8217;t have Kevin&#8217;s problem with &#8216;woof&#8217; but other readers might, as he suggests, so maybe others will speak up.</p>
<p>But I do have a problem with &#8216;playing&#8217; beams because I&#8217;m seeing romping, wiggling and jiggling lights in a Disney sense.  What do you mean by &#8216;playing&#8217;&#8211;shimmering?  Lacing shafts that change in hue and intensity? Rainbow flickers of light, glitters, gleams?  Sunlight doesn&#8217;t play, it reflects, and beams also reflect, so what exactly is happening here?</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Andrew Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1982</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Andrew Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jul 2006 15:23:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/#comment-1982</guid>
		<description>Sue,

The trouble with "woof" is twofold: first, "woof of warning" has alliteration to draw attention to itselve and makes it look more cutesy than "woof" by itself; and second, it's a matter of bathos, a change of register in the words.  Despite the accuracy of the sound, I read "woof" as a bit twee.  Yes, it's a personal reaction, but I'm not the only one who'll have it, so be aware of it.  I also do have dogs and do understand dog behavior, but that still doesn't mean I find "woof" non-twee.

As for the Twa Corbies business, I picked up on that and on "The Witch of the West Merelands" which uses the same imagery, but honestly, unless there's a good reason, it struck me as fashionplating the character, not actual storytelling.  Personal reaction, but I'm not the only one who will have it.

If the hawk and the horse are going to be there, they need to be doing more work for the scene.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sue,</p>
<p>The trouble with &#8220;woof&#8221; is twofold: first, &#8220;woof of warning&#8221; has alliteration to draw attention to itselve and makes it look more cutesy than &#8220;woof&#8221; by itself; and second, it&#8217;s a matter of bathos, a change of register in the words.  Despite the accuracy of the sound, I read &#8220;woof&#8221; as a bit twee.  Yes, it&#8217;s a personal reaction, but I&#8217;m not the only one who&#8217;ll have it, so be aware of it.  I also do have dogs and do understand dog behavior, but that still doesn&#8217;t mean I find &#8220;woof&#8221; non-twee.</p>
<p>As for the Twa Corbies business, I picked up on that and on &#8220;The Witch of the West Merelands&#8221; which uses the same imagery, but honestly, unless there&#8217;s a good reason, it struck me as fashionplating the character, not actual storytelling.  Personal reaction, but I&#8217;m not the only one who will have it.</p>
<p>If the hawk and the horse are going to be there, they need to be doing more work for the scene.</p>
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		<title>By: makoiyi</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1981</link>
		<dc:creator>makoiyi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/#comment-1981</guid>
		<description>I was thinking of a movie camera rather than a,  photographic camera. If you looked back at older ones when you sat in a cinema, they did appear to fan and move, but I can't use 'camera' in the context of a medieval story, so I think I'll simply use 'fan' as in fan out and play with some adjectives to show it isn't static. In which case the beams would be playing with the sunlight rather than the other way around.

And no, you aren't being tiring at all. I'm well aware of the importance of even minor details which can throw someone for a loop. And that an author's personal imagery doesn't always convey what she means :(</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was thinking of a movie camera rather than a,  photographic camera. If you looked back at older ones when you sat in a cinema, they did appear to fan and move, but I can&#8217;t use &#8216;camera&#8217; in the context of a medieval story, so I think I&#8217;ll simply use &#8216;fan&#8217; as in fan out and play with some adjectives to show it isn&#8217;t static. In which case the beams would be playing with the sunlight rather than the other way around.</p>
<p>And no, you aren&#8217;t being tiring at all. I&#8217;m well aware of the importance of even minor details which can throw someone for a loop. And that an author&#8217;s personal imagery doesn&#8217;t always convey what she means <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Sherwood Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/comment-page-1/#comment-1980</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherwood Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Jul 2006 14:17:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-38/#comment-1980</guid>
		<description>Then I have two questions: how does a camera beam?  (I am not trying to be tiring, but I'm trying to grasp the image you are seeing in your head.)  Second, how does sunlight play with a beam?  These are your first two clues that magic is happening, and so it seems a good idea to get the image as sharp for the most readers as possible, thus strengthening that story hook.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Then I have two questions: how does a camera beam?  (I am not trying to be tiring, but I&#8217;m trying to grasp the image you are seeing in your head.)  Second, how does sunlight play with a beam?  These are your first two clues that magic is happening, and so it seems a good idea to get the image as sharp for the most readers as possible, thus strengthening that story hook.</p>
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