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	<title>Comments on: Critique #50:  Don Oestreicher #2</title>
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	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 08:45:14 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Erin Underwood</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1639</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Underwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Aug 2006 06:42:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kit, I agree that the writer should be told if a particular story element evokes a strong reaction in a reader. After all, the writer may not have anticipated the response he receives. Thanks for raising the flag on the teenage rape story element, especially since this could be a little dicey if not handled carefully.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kit, I agree that the writer should be told if a particular story element evokes a strong reaction in a reader. After all, the writer may not have anticipated the response he receives. Thanks for raising the flag on the teenage rape story element, especially since this could be a little dicey if not handled carefully.</p>
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		<title>By: Kit Retterson</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1632</link>
		<dc:creator>Kit Retterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:19:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Jason -  I did not think that he should change the number of words.  I complimented Don on his economy.

The point I was trying to make is that there seemed to be many things that were confusing.  To clarify them doesn't require more words.  In fact, I think it's a back-handed compliment to Don's economy that I was able to read so much into so little (and I'm deeply envious!)!!!

Also, to be clear -- it was the notion of the rape of children ("boys and girls"), not rape per se, to which I raised a questioning flag.  I couldn't agree with you more, Erin.  But I don't think it does an author service to avoid telling him that he evoked a strong reaction.  As always, it's a matter of what his intentions are and how it serves his story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason -  I did not think that he should change the number of words.  I complimented Don on his economy.</p>
<p>The point I was trying to make is that there seemed to be many things that were confusing.  To clarify them doesn&#8217;t require more words.  In fact, I think it&#8217;s a back-handed compliment to Don&#8217;s economy that I was able to read so much into so little (and I&#8217;m deeply envious!)!!!</p>
<p>Also, to be clear &#8212; it was the notion of the rape of children (&#8221;boys and girls&#8221;), not rape per se, to which I raised a questioning flag.  I couldn&#8217;t agree with you more, Erin.  But I don&#8217;t think it does an author service to avoid telling him that he evoked a strong reaction.  As always, it&#8217;s a matter of what his intentions are and how it serves his story.</p>
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		<title>By: Erin Underwood</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1631</link>
		<dc:creator>Erin Underwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Aug 2006 01:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Don, rape is as much a part of life within a society as any other criminal act. Think twice before taking it out,however, you could make the circumstances more realistic. 

Remember, just because it's an uncomfortable topic doesn't mean it's completely inappropriate to include it. I won't go into all of my reasons here for cautioning you to think twice before hitting the delete button, but be sure that you are doing what is right for the story before making the change. Sometimes you need to take a stand on a topic if it is the most powerful way for you to convey your message.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don, rape is as much a part of life within a society as any other criminal act. Think twice before taking it out,however, you could make the circumstances more realistic. </p>
<p>Remember, just because it&#8217;s an uncomfortable topic doesn&#8217;t mean it&#8217;s completely inappropriate to include it. I won&#8217;t go into all of my reasons here for cautioning you to think twice before hitting the delete button, but be sure that you are doing what is right for the story before making the change. Sometimes you need to take a stand on a topic if it is the most powerful way for you to convey your message.</p>
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		<title>By: Don Oestreicher</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1626</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Oestreicher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Aug 2006 00:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50/#comment-1626</guid>
		<description>Madeleine, Katharine and Kit:

First, thanks very much for your critiques.

Katharine is correct that &lt;blockquote&gt;the end of the pregnancy in fact is the beginning of the real story.&lt;/blockquote&gt;  The 13 lines submitted comprise the complete prologue.  The next scene and the remainder of the story take place over ten years in the future.  The working title is &lt;em&gt;Draft Notice&lt;/em&gt;

Iâ€™ll change the chubby teenage cheeks. :-)

I take Madeleineâ€™s comment, &lt;blockquote&gt;Iâ€™d also like to know Sayraaâ€™s reaction, ...&lt;/blockquote&gt;generally as a need to improve Sayraaâ€™s characterization.  I work on this in the revision.

Finally, this is &lt;em&gt;not &lt;/em&gt;a dystopic story, so when Kit thinks of &lt;em&gt;The Handmaidâ€™s Tale&lt;/em&gt;, I feel I went too far with the rape.  I am working on a revision to introduce Sayraa and the social setting without a teenage rape.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madeleine, Katharine and Kit:</p>
<p>First, thanks very much for your critiques.</p>
<p>Katharine is correct that<br />
<blockquote>the end of the pregnancy in fact is the beginning of the real story.</p></blockquote>
<p>  The 13 lines submitted comprise the complete prologue.  The next scene and the remainder of the story take place over ten years in the future.  The working title is <em>Draft Notice</em></p>
<p>Iâ€™ll change the chubby teenage cheeks. <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I take Madeleineâ€™s comment,<br />
<blockquote>Iâ€™d also like to know Sayraaâ€™s reaction, &#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>generally as a need to improve Sayraaâ€™s characterization.  I work on this in the revision.</p>
<p>Finally, this is <em>not </em>a dystopic story, so when Kit thinks of <em>The Handmaidâ€™s Tale</em>, I feel I went too far with the rape.  I am working on a revision to introduce Sayraa and the social setting without a teenage rape.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason Herbert</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1617</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason Herbert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 20:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50/#comment-1617</guid>
		<description>Don,

I disagree very much with most of Kit Retterson's comments, here.  I like the economy of language and the absence of unnecessary exposition.  I do second the suggestions made above by Katharine &#38; Madeleine, however.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don,</p>
<p>I disagree very much with most of Kit Retterson&#8217;s comments, here.  I like the economy of language and the absence of unnecessary exposition.  I do second the suggestions made above by Katharine &amp; Madeleine, however.</p>
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		<title>By: Kit Retterson</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1589</link>
		<dc:creator>Kit Retterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 05:19:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Don,

Forgive me for not mentioning --  I admired how much you'd accomplished in such a short space.  It's very good from the perspective of a quick set up for a story to follow.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don,</p>
<p>Forgive me for not mentioning &#8212;  I admired how much you&#8217;d accomplished in such a short space.  It&#8217;s very good from the perspective of a quick set up for a story to follow.</p>
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		<title>By: Kit Retterson</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1587</link>
		<dc:creator>Kit Retterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 03:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50/#comment-1587</guid>
		<description>Don,

I was confused and had to read it more than once to understand what the action was -- I'm sorry -- chalk it up to dimness on this reader's part.

"Fertility Center" implies (to me) a place you go when you can't have kids and that kind of threw me off.  

I didn't follow the mention of the empty desks and houses bit and kids not being able to have children.   I had to re-read that several times.

I didn't follow how she'd ended up in the boys' room.  

And I thought you avoided describing the one thing that *did* happen to her there.  There is kicking and screaming, and standing around and laughing, but there's no pain, no holding her down (hard to rape a kicking girl), no other kinds of force that I might have expected from the scene.   I was left wondering why she didn't remember the smell of the different boys on top of her, or the feel of them holding her down, or the pain of penetration, the blood, the other bodily fluids.  "Standing and laughing" didn't give me a sense of her humiliation and degradation because it seemed lke any old school yard scene (I'm thinking Schwartz with his tongue stuck to the pole in "A Christmas Story").   Unless, you intended to convey that rape is a schoolyard norm.  

I wondered why there would be no teacher or other adult around to hear her screams (I was thinking like a parent).  In my day (and yes, I get that this is in the future), adults watched the restrooms like hawks.

I didn't follow the logic of why she'd be drafted for maternity service if she wasn't already pregnant.   I didn't understand why that would a criteria -- I would have thought that she would be drafted if her fertility had been proven (not the other way around).  

Also, if it's the norm to be pregnant in high school, then everyone would be doing it (and why hadn't Sayraa done it already on her own terms?).  

And if pregnancy is a thing to aspire to in this world, it wasn't at all surprising that Sayraa wouldn't want to become pregnant again.  She was already acting outside the norm by not having a steady boyfriend (or boyfriends).  

So, there's a lot that didn't make sense for me.  Again, feel free to chalk it up to my own dimness.

Finally, I thought this sounded a bit like "The Handmaiden's Tale," so my first reaction was wondering if this story was going to be something along those lines, but obviously meant to be more shocking because you start out with children being raped at school and adults acting as if that's a-okay.   I was left wondering if it was all about having a shocking (a la Indiana Jones) kind of opening.

I think the rape of children is obscene (I have a preteenage daughter).  I mention that not as approbation, but to point out that the opening will definitely offend some readers and unless that's a really important concept for the overall work, it might prove somewhat limiting.

Finally, I find "chubby" more problematic than "teenage."  I think "teenage" helps me feel less unnerved with the passage.  "Chubby" makes me think of a child.  Fifteen years and on, teenage girls aren't "chubby" -- unless you mean "chunky," "fat," or "overweight."  If you're trying to convey that Sayraa is undesirable, I think there are more direct ways of doing do.  "Chubby" makes me think of small children.

It's all my opinion -- take it all with a huge grain of salt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don,</p>
<p>I was confused and had to read it more than once to understand what the action was &#8212; I&#8217;m sorry &#8212; chalk it up to dimness on this reader&#8217;s part.</p>
<p>&#8220;Fertility Center&#8221; implies (to me) a place you go when you can&#8217;t have kids and that kind of threw me off.  </p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t follow the mention of the empty desks and houses bit and kids not being able to have children.   I had to re-read that several times.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t follow how she&#8217;d ended up in the boys&#8217; room.  </p>
<p>And I thought you avoided describing the one thing that *did* happen to her there.  There is kicking and screaming, and standing around and laughing, but there&#8217;s no pain, no holding her down (hard to rape a kicking girl), no other kinds of force that I might have expected from the scene.   I was left wondering why she didn&#8217;t remember the smell of the different boys on top of her, or the feel of them holding her down, or the pain of penetration, the blood, the other bodily fluids.  &#8220;Standing and laughing&#8221; didn&#8217;t give me a sense of her humiliation and degradation because it seemed lke any old school yard scene (I&#8217;m thinking Schwartz with his tongue stuck to the pole in &#8220;A Christmas Story&#8221;).   Unless, you intended to convey that rape is a schoolyard norm.  </p>
<p>I wondered why there would be no teacher or other adult around to hear her screams (I was thinking like a parent).  In my day (and yes, I get that this is in the future), adults watched the restrooms like hawks.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t follow the logic of why she&#8217;d be drafted for maternity service if she wasn&#8217;t already pregnant.   I didn&#8217;t understand why that would a criteria &#8212; I would have thought that she would be drafted if her fertility had been proven (not the other way around).  </p>
<p>Also, if it&#8217;s the norm to be pregnant in high school, then everyone would be doing it (and why hadn&#8217;t Sayraa done it already on her own terms?).  </p>
<p>And if pregnancy is a thing to aspire to in this world, it wasn&#8217;t at all surprising that Sayraa wouldn&#8217;t want to become pregnant again.  She was already acting outside the norm by not having a steady boyfriend (or boyfriends).  </p>
<p>So, there&#8217;s a lot that didn&#8217;t make sense for me.  Again, feel free to chalk it up to my own dimness.</p>
<p>Finally, I thought this sounded a bit like &#8220;The Handmaiden&#8217;s Tale,&#8221; so my first reaction was wondering if this story was going to be something along those lines, but obviously meant to be more shocking because you start out with children being raped at school and adults acting as if that&#8217;s a-okay.   I was left wondering if it was all about having a shocking (a la Indiana Jones) kind of opening.</p>
<p>I think the rape of children is obscene (I have a preteenage daughter).  I mention that not as approbation, but to point out that the opening will definitely offend some readers and unless that&#8217;s a really important concept for the overall work, it might prove somewhat limiting.</p>
<p>Finally, I find &#8220;chubby&#8221; more problematic than &#8220;teenage.&#8221;  I think &#8220;teenage&#8221; helps me feel less unnerved with the passage.  &#8220;Chubby&#8221; makes me think of a child.  Fifteen years and on, teenage girls aren&#8217;t &#8220;chubby&#8221; &#8212; unless you mean &#8220;chunky,&#8221; &#8220;fat,&#8221; or &#8220;overweight.&#8221;  If you&#8217;re trying to convey that Sayraa is undesirable, I think there are more direct ways of doing do.  &#8220;Chubby&#8221; makes me think of small children.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s all my opinion &#8212; take it all with a huge grain of salt.</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine Robins</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1560</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine Robins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 00:41:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You're right, Kit.  I think I meant shift in tone (I'm sleep deprived today).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re right, Kit.  I think I meant shift in tone (I&#8217;m sleep deprived today).</p>
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		<title>By: Katharine Kerr</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1558</link>
		<dc:creator>Katharine Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:34:21 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The last graph is definitely too much too soon, even if it's the ultimate end of this pregnancy.   I get the impression that the end of the pregnancy in fact is the beginning of the real story, but the way it's presented doesn't work.

(But Mad, there isn't any shift in tense -- it's in present tense all the way.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The last graph is definitely too much too soon, even if it&#8217;s the ultimate end of this pregnancy.   I get the impression that the end of the pregnancy in fact is the beginning of the real story, but the way it&#8217;s presented doesn&#8217;t work.</p>
<p>(But Mad, there isn&#8217;t any shift in tense &#8212; it&#8217;s in present tense all the way.)</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine Robins</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50#comment-1556</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine Robins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Aug 2006 20:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-50/#comment-1556</guid>
		<description>This is a very nifty premise.  I'm hoping hard that the last graph is an author's note to the author or critiquer, and not something that is supposed to be in the story, because the shift in tense and tone is jarring.

I think what this needs, more than anything, is some judicious tweaking; the premise is so compelling you don't want anything to get in its way: for example, when you say &lt;em&gt; Tears run down Sayraaâ€™s chubby, teenage cheeks, â€œMama, I was raped!â€&lt;/em&gt; I would delete "teenage."  The chubby cheeks are a more interesting detail, and Sayraa's age is revealed clearly enough (for me) by her mother's tone and the fact that she's still in school.

I would (if it were me) restructure the fourth graph a little:&lt;blockquote&gt;Sayraa only thinks of the cold, hard floor in the boysâ€™ restroom.  She remembers kicking and screaming for a long time.  &lt;i&gt;They stood around me and laughed.&lt;/i&gt;  She remembers kicking and screaming for a long time.  When a teacher finally showed up, the boys ran away.  The teacher waited with her for the Fertility Officers.  â€œYouâ€™re okay now,â€ the uniformed FO said, â€œYouâ€™re okay.â€&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I'd also like to know Sayraa's reaction to the Fertility Officer's assertion that she is "okay now."  Cause me, I'm doubting that.  Just a word or two of reaction (perhaps in italics, as with "They stood around me and laughed") would be all that's needed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a very nifty premise.  I&#8217;m hoping hard that the last graph is an author&#8217;s note to the author or critiquer, and not something that is supposed to be in the story, because the shift in tense and tone is jarring.</p>
<p>I think what this needs, more than anything, is some judicious tweaking; the premise is so compelling you don&#8217;t want anything to get in its way: for example, when you say <em> Tears run down Sayraaâ€™s chubby, teenage cheeks, â€œMama, I was raped!â€</em> I would delete &#8220;teenage.&#8221;  The chubby cheeks are a more interesting detail, and Sayraa&#8217;s age is revealed clearly enough (for me) by her mother&#8217;s tone and the fact that she&#8217;s still in school.</p>
<p>I would (if it were me) restructure the fourth graph a little:<br />
<blockquote>Sayraa only thinks of the cold, hard floor in the boysâ€™ restroom.  She remembers kicking and screaming for a long time.  <i>They stood around me and laughed.</i>  She remembers kicking and screaming for a long time.  When a teacher finally showed up, the boys ran away.  The teacher waited with her for the Fertility Officers.  â€œYouâ€™re okay now,â€ the uniformed FO said, â€œYouâ€™re okay.â€</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;d also like to know Sayraa&#8217;s reaction to the Fertility Officer&#8217;s assertion that she is &#8220;okay now.&#8221;  Cause me, I&#8217;m doubting that.  Just a word or two of reaction (perhaps in italics, as with &#8220;They stood around me and laughed&#8221;) would be all that&#8217;s needed.</p>
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