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	<title>Comments on: Critique #86 &#8212; Michael Greenhut, 2nd revision</title>
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	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:00:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: tchernabyelo</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-86#comment-3378</link>
		<dc:creator>tchernabyelo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 02 Oct 2006 16:37:37 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>OK, we're coming in on the middle of something here; clearly something dramatic, possibly life-threatening (the wound implies that).

But we don't know what, we don't know why it's important, we don't really know who the narrator is... without any of this information, it's hard to feel caught up in the moment.   You need some very good description to make us care for people and things we know nothing about, right off that bat, and for me, I'm afraid this doesn't work as it stands.   Even when you tell us stuff, you don't tell us enough - he can't bleed all over the storehouse - why? what storehouse?.   I've no idea of the setting - we've got candlelight, vaguely implying a primitive world (technologically speaking) but we also have "mom and Ashley", very modern-day American, and then we have Halamel, which I dont know at all.   So I can't even make any reasonable assumptions.


And, as if I'm not already thoroughly confused, you hit me with the fact that he got wounded two years ago?   That's just a "wha...?" moment.   If I had an anchor to character or place, it might hook me.   As it is, it's precisely this point at which I decide "nope, sorry, forget it".

Give me something, some firm bnugget that I can feel, some anchor to cling to, and this kind of beginning works.   But there's just way too much left unsaid here.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, we&#8217;re coming in on the middle of something here; clearly something dramatic, possibly life-threatening (the wound implies that).</p>
<p>But we don&#8217;t know what, we don&#8217;t know why it&#8217;s important, we don&#8217;t really know who the narrator is&#8230; without any of this information, it&#8217;s hard to feel caught up in the moment.   You need some very good description to make us care for people and things we know nothing about, right off that bat, and for me, I&#8217;m afraid this doesn&#8217;t work as it stands.   Even when you tell us stuff, you don&#8217;t tell us enough - he can&#8217;t bleed all over the storehouse - why? what storehouse?.   I&#8217;ve no idea of the setting - we&#8217;ve got candlelight, vaguely implying a primitive world (technologically speaking) but we also have &#8220;mom and Ashley&#8221;, very modern-day American, and then we have Halamel, which I dont know at all.   So I can&#8217;t even make any reasonable assumptions.</p>
<p>And, as if I&#8217;m not already thoroughly confused, you hit me with the fact that he got wounded two years ago?   That&#8217;s just a &#8220;wha&#8230;?&#8221; moment.   If I had an anchor to character or place, it might hook me.   As it is, it&#8217;s precisely this point at which I decide &#8220;nope, sorry, forget it&#8221;.</p>
<p>Give me something, some firm bnugget that I can feel, some anchor to cling to, and this kind of beginning works.   But there&#8217;s just way too much left unsaid here.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Greenhut</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-86#comment-3190</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Greenhut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Sep 2006 17:40:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thanks, Vivian.  I'll definitely check into Card's book, since he's one of my favorites

To Daniel, before I forget:  The prayer didn't get cut.  It just got bumped to lines 14 and beyond.   So, it's still there, and hopefully any given editor will make it that far.  *grin*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Vivian.  I&#8217;ll definitely check into Card&#8217;s book, since he&#8217;s one of my favorites</p>
<p>To Daniel, before I forget:  The prayer didn&#8217;t get cut.  It just got bumped to lines 14 and beyond.   So, it&#8217;s still there, and hopefully any given editor will make it that far.  *grin*</p>
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		<title>By: Vivian Francis</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-86#comment-3183</link>
		<dc:creator>Vivian Francis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 25 Sep 2006 15:26:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-86/#comment-3183</guid>
		<description>I find point of view/narrator's voice to be one of the strangest parts of a story.  Here are a couple of books I thought were helpful in sorting it all out: 

Steering the craft:exercises and discussions on story writing for the lone navigator or the mutinous crew.  Ursula K. Le Guin.

Characters and viewpoint.  Orson Scott Card.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find point of view/narrator&#8217;s voice to be one of the strangest parts of a story.  Here are a couple of books I thought were helpful in sorting it all out: </p>
<p>Steering the craft:exercises and discussions on story writing for the lone navigator or the mutinous crew.  Ursula K. Le Guin.</p>
<p>Characters and viewpoint.  Orson Scott Card.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Greenhut</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-86#comment-3095</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Greenhut</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 14:33:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Noted, and thanks to you both.  This piece seems particularly troublesome when it comes to style.   As I mentioned, I do tend to have problems with clarity, but I'm not sure what it is about this one.   I think, though, that I wasn't sure what people meant when they said I was jumping between povs until now.  I always thought of pov jumping as going from one head to another without a proper break, but now I see the beast has many forms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noted, and thanks to you both.  This piece seems particularly troublesome when it comes to style.   As I mentioned, I do tend to have problems with clarity, but I&#8217;m not sure what it is about this one.   I think, though, that I wasn&#8217;t sure what people meant when they said I was jumping between povs until now.  I always thought of pov jumping as going from one head to another without a proper break, but now I see the beast has many forms.</p>
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		<title>By: Daniel Woods</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-86#comment-3088</link>
		<dc:creator>Daniel Woods</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Sep 2006 11:58:44 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Kevin's covered viewpoint and swearing, and there's not nearly as much of the 'tone shift' problem as last time (though it's still there because of the third person omniscient bits). The one thing I'd say about the first two lines is that they're  tad formulaic: action + swear word = emotion; description + curse = more emotion? It's just a personal thing of mine - like when people use the same word in consecutive sentences (Today I went to the shops. It was sunny today). I'd suggest trying to embed one or both of the curses into the 'warm blood' bit - it would just vary the rhythm slightly.

Secondly, be very careful about using 'rotting world' - unless you mean that the whole world is quite literally rotting, I'd advise against using it (it certainly gave &lt;em&gt;me&lt;/em&gt; a very strange mental image). 

I agree with Madeleine that 'seared' works better, but it doesn't quite seem to fit with 'palate' - I'd suggest replacing that with another word, or perhaps finding a different way to describe the sharp taste altogether.

'Gideon sucked on his hand' - again, strange mental image of grown man (I assume?) sucking on entire hand like a baby. Is his &lt;em&gt;entire hand&lt;/em&gt; drenched in blood or something? If so, then I'm not sure he'd be &lt;em&gt;sucking&lt;/em&gt; it clean (more wiping it on his clothes or something). If not, then does he need to suck the whole thing to get the blood off? Be more specific about the part of his hand he is sucking.

That's pretty much it - I definitely think this is better than the last one though :).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin&#8217;s covered viewpoint and swearing, and there&#8217;s not nearly as much of the &#8216;tone shift&#8217; problem as last time (though it&#8217;s still there because of the third person omniscient bits). The one thing I&#8217;d say about the first two lines is that they&#8217;re  tad formulaic: action + swear word = emotion; description + curse = more emotion? It&#8217;s just a personal thing of mine - like when people use the same word in consecutive sentences (Today I went to the shops. It was sunny today). I&#8217;d suggest trying to embed one or both of the curses into the &#8216;warm blood&#8217; bit - it would just vary the rhythm slightly.</p>
<p>Secondly, be very careful about using &#8216;rotting world&#8217; - unless you mean that the whole world is quite literally rotting, I&#8217;d advise against using it (it certainly gave <em>me</em> a very strange mental image). </p>
<p>I agree with Madeleine that &#8217;seared&#8217; works better, but it doesn&#8217;t quite seem to fit with &#8216;palate&#8217; - I&#8217;d suggest replacing that with another word, or perhaps finding a different way to describe the sharp taste altogether.</p>
<p>&#8216;Gideon sucked on his hand&#8217; - again, strange mental image of grown man (I assume?) sucking on entire hand like a baby. Is his <em>entire hand</em> drenched in blood or something? If so, then I&#8217;m not sure he&#8217;d be <em>sucking</em> it clean (more wiping it on his clothes or something). If not, then does he need to suck the whole thing to get the blood off? Be more specific about the part of his hand he is sucking.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s pretty much it - I definitely think this is better than the last one though :).</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Andrew Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/damon-knight/critique-86#comment-3077</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Andrew Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Sep 2006 19:27:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Michael,

My first time jumping in on this.  Hadn't looked at the previous drafts.

The general scenario you've got here is engaging and interesting, gives us concern for the main character and interest in what happens next, but the devil is in the details.

The main trouble here is viewpoint.  You waffle back and forth between a third person limited omniscient, staying with the thoughts and perceptions of your protagonist, and a third person full omniscient where the narrator tells us incongruous details, such as the firelight being "sleepy" (which it certainly isn't to the protagonist, since he's bolt awake clutching a bleeding stomach wound or flashback of same)  and waxing lyrical by describing the pounding heart as a "crescendo"--which, if you've had your heart race like that, is generally the last thought in your mind, unless you're an orchestra conductor.

Other business: Don't swear.  Or I should say, don't swear without a good reason and don't use colorless curses unless there's an equally good reason.

I'm not saying that people don't say, and think, "Shit!" and many other words, it's just that they seem terribly modern, especially if you toss them into the first line of a story.  Plus, there's a certain turn-off factor for the more genteely brought up, who certainly have heard such things before, but don't like hearing them much and aren't impressed when they do.  Besides which, saying "Shit!" when you're injured also sounds like a genteel way of not saying "Fuck!" which is more likely if we're going with a modern character.

Of course, someone with a bleeding stomach wound won't be thinking "shucky darn!" either, but you do better with "gods damn it" (though you need to lose the hyphen).  Maybe "Fucking gods!"?  Or, alternately, you could have him take the name of some particular divinity in vain, the same way someone would say "Jesus!"

Anyway, what I'm saying here is that you need to chose all the words carefully so we can best understand the world you're creating, and more than that, enjoy it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael,</p>
<p>My first time jumping in on this.  Hadn&#8217;t looked at the previous drafts.</p>
<p>The general scenario you&#8217;ve got here is engaging and interesting, gives us concern for the main character and interest in what happens next, but the devil is in the details.</p>
<p>The main trouble here is viewpoint.  You waffle back and forth between a third person limited omniscient, staying with the thoughts and perceptions of your protagonist, and a third person full omniscient where the narrator tells us incongruous details, such as the firelight being &#8220;sleepy&#8221; (which it certainly isn&#8217;t to the protagonist, since he&#8217;s bolt awake clutching a bleeding stomach wound or flashback of same)  and waxing lyrical by describing the pounding heart as a &#8220;crescendo&#8221;&#8211;which, if you&#8217;ve had your heart race like that, is generally the last thought in your mind, unless you&#8217;re an orchestra conductor.</p>
<p>Other business: Don&#8217;t swear.  Or I should say, don&#8217;t swear without a good reason and don&#8217;t use colorless curses unless there&#8217;s an equally good reason.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying that people don&#8217;t say, and think, &#8220;Shit!&#8221; and many other words, it&#8217;s just that they seem terribly modern, especially if you toss them into the first line of a story.  Plus, there&#8217;s a certain turn-off factor for the more genteely brought up, who certainly have heard such things before, but don&#8217;t like hearing them much and aren&#8217;t impressed when they do.  Besides which, saying &#8220;Shit!&#8221; when you&#8217;re injured also sounds like a genteel way of not saying &#8220;Fuck!&#8221; which is more likely if we&#8217;re going with a modern character.</p>
<p>Of course, someone with a bleeding stomach wound won&#8217;t be thinking &#8220;shucky darn!&#8221; either, but you do better with &#8220;gods damn it&#8221; (though you need to lose the hyphen).  Maybe &#8220;Fucking gods!&#8221;?  Or, alternately, you could have him take the name of some particular divinity in vain, the same way someone would say &#8220;Jesus!&#8221;</p>
<p>Anyway, what I&#8217;m saying here is that you need to chose all the words carefully so we can best understand the world you&#8217;re creating, and more than that, enjoy it.</p>
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