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	<title>Comments on: Men, Sex, SFF</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:42:06 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: MLR</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-946</link>
		<dc:creator>MLR</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Jul 2006 13:18:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/men-sex-sff#comment-946</guid>
		<description>As a reader of the genre, what I've noticed more than male/female differences in writing sex are male/female differences in writing emotion.  

I'm often left feeling emotionally distant from works written by males.  The characters may express (and note in others) anger, fear, and even sadness, but it seems all too often they put emotions aside and just get on with the "job."    

I contrast that with what seems to me to be a female approach of the characters being aware of the emotional lives of the other characters.  For example, as the POV character makes decisions in a scene, they are aware of character B becoming upset and know that there is an argument in the offing, because B has said they can't stand for this to happen again, even though B has not said a word in the scene.  There is an outward interaction going on and a more hidden emotional interaction that is pervasive in the work.   I see this approach to storytelling most often in female authors' stories.

Thus for me, one key difference between male and female authors' sex scenes may well be the emotional distance or connection I've already established with the characters, as well as the emotional depth of the scene as written.

Having said that, I really dislike generalizations, so there are, of course, exceptions to be expected.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a reader of the genre, what I&#8217;ve noticed more than male/female differences in writing sex are male/female differences in writing emotion.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m often left feeling emotionally distant from works written by males.  The characters may express (and note in others) anger, fear, and even sadness, but it seems all too often they put emotions aside and just get on with the &#8220;job.&#8221;    </p>
<p>I contrast that with what seems to me to be a female approach of the characters being aware of the emotional lives of the other characters.  For example, as the POV character makes decisions in a scene, they are aware of character B becoming upset and know that there is an argument in the offing, because B has said they can&#8217;t stand for this to happen again, even though B has not said a word in the scene.  There is an outward interaction going on and a more hidden emotional interaction that is pervasive in the work.   I see this approach to storytelling most often in female authors&#8217; stories.</p>
<p>Thus for me, one key difference between male and female authors&#8217; sex scenes may well be the emotional distance or connection I&#8217;ve already established with the characters, as well as the emotional depth of the scene as written.</p>
<p>Having said that, I really dislike generalizations, so there are, of course, exceptions to be expected.</p>
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		<title>By: Constance Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-916</link>
		<dc:creator>Constance Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jul 2006 21:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/men-sex-sff#comment-916</guid>
		<description>Muneraven said&lt;strong&gt;: &lt;/strong&gt;&lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;Oh dear. He must have been doing it wrong.&lt;/em&gt; &lt;/strong&gt;

So true!&lt;strong&gt;Â  &lt;img src="http://www.zoobooks.com/whatisazoobook/salesimages/laughing%20chimps.gif" /&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;

Love, C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Muneraven said<strong>: </strong><strong><em>Oh dear. He must have been doing it wrong.</em> </strong></p>
<p>So true!<strong>Â  <img src="http://www.zoobooks.com/whatisazoobook/salesimages/laughing%20chimps.gif" /></strong></p>
<p>Love, C.</p>
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		<title>By: Muneraven</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-890</link>
		<dc:creator>Muneraven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 15:22:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Apparently Dr. Johnson said:  â€œThe expense is damnable, the position is ridiculous, and the pleasure fleeting.â€ 

Oh dear.  He must have been doing it wrong.

:-P</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Apparently Dr. Johnson said:  â€œThe expense is damnable, the position is ridiculous, and the pleasure fleeting.â€ </p>
<p>Oh dear.  He must have been doing it wrong.</p>
<p> <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif' alt=':-P' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Lois Tilton</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-888</link>
		<dc:creator>Lois Tilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 14:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/men-sex-sff#comment-888</guid>
		<description>I think you &lt;strong&gt;have&lt;/strong&gt; to idealize sex scenes to produce the desired effect, because in real life, as Dr Johnson said, "The expense is damnable, the position is ridiculous, and the pleasure fleeting."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you <strong>have</strong> to idealize sex scenes to produce the desired effect, because in real life, as Dr Johnson said, &#8220;The expense is damnable, the position is ridiculous, and the pleasure fleeting.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Tiedemann</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-887</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Tiedemann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 13:31:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/men-sex-sff#comment-887</guid>
		<description>Following up briefly on the "revealing" aspect of writing sex scenes, I just remembered one of the "lectures" we received from Delany having to do with dialogue.

"Dialogue on the page is a wholly artificial thing...people do NOT talk like that.  What you do is imitate or suggest the way these people MIGHT converse in a very idealized way."

He explained that transcriptions of conversations are extremely chaotic, often remarkably dull, and horribly non-grammatical.  You hear this and think "Of course" because you sort of realized this all along, and to a certain degree, everything that happens on the page is an idealized or distilled version of what might &lt;em&gt;actually&lt;/em&gt; happen.

Given that, we come to sex, and realize that very much the same kind of redacting is going on.  I think, though, a lot of writers--male, female, straight, bi, or gay--forget or don't quite realize that sex is another form of dialogue.  A conversation is going on there, an exchange...intercourse, in all its meanings.

Keeping that in mind, the aspects that get idealized and end up actually on the page, can either convey that essential nature of what's going on, or tell how much of that essence is being missed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Following up briefly on the &#8220;revealing&#8221; aspect of writing sex scenes, I just remembered one of the &#8220;lectures&#8221; we received from Delany having to do with dialogue.</p>
<p>&#8220;Dialogue on the page is a wholly artificial thing&#8230;people do NOT talk like that.  What you do is imitate or suggest the way these people MIGHT converse in a very idealized way.&#8221;</p>
<p>He explained that transcriptions of conversations are extremely chaotic, often remarkably dull, and horribly non-grammatical.  You hear this and think &#8220;Of course&#8221; because you sort of realized this all along, and to a certain degree, everything that happens on the page is an idealized or distilled version of what might <em>actually</em> happen.</p>
<p>Given that, we come to sex, and realize that very much the same kind of redacting is going on.  I think, though, a lot of writers&#8211;male, female, straight, bi, or gay&#8211;forget or don&#8217;t quite realize that sex is another form of dialogue.  A conversation is going on there, an exchange&#8230;intercourse, in all its meanings.</p>
<p>Keeping that in mind, the aspects that get idealized and end up actually on the page, can either convey that essential nature of what&#8217;s going on, or tell how much of that essence is being missed.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-886</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Jul 2006 06:50:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Mark, I think you're right that writing about sex and sexual feelings can seem very revealing.  Perhaps that's one reason why it's easier to lapse into distancing cliches, or unrealistic fantasies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mark, I think you&#8217;re right that writing about sex and sexual feelings can seem very revealing.  Perhaps that&#8217;s one reason why it&#8217;s easier to lapse into distancing cliches, or unrealistic fantasies.</p>
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		<title>By: Constance Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-877</link>
		<dc:creator>Constance Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:34:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/men-sex-sff#comment-877</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Muneraven&lt;/strong&gt; said:

&lt;em&gt;If you accept that idea, the fact that many male writers DO understand perspectives other than their own, and so so with great sensitivity and creativity, is actually remarkable. &lt;/em&gt;

So true.  Which might say something as well as to why Steve Barne's romantic-sexual encounters are effective ....

Have never read Fancher, alas.

The bit &lt;strong&gt;makoiyi&lt;/strong&gt; quoted is reminiscent of the wiccan circle experience created by Tara and Willow in &lt;em&gt;Buffy&lt;/em&gt;, season 4's "Who Are You?" ep.

Love, C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Muneraven</strong> said:</p>
<p><em>If you accept that idea, the fact that many male writers DO understand perspectives other than their own, and so so with great sensitivity and creativity, is actually remarkable. </em></p>
<p>So true.  Which might say something as well as to why Steve Barne&#8217;s romantic-sexual encounters are effective &#8230;.</p>
<p>Have never read Fancher, alas.</p>
<p>The bit <strong>makoiyi</strong> quoted is reminiscent of the wiccan circle experience created by Tara and Willow in <em>Buffy</em>, season 4&#8217;s &#8220;Who Are You?&#8221; ep.</p>
<p>Love, C.</p>
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		<title>By: Muneraven</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-876</link>
		<dc:creator>Muneraven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 18:04:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/men-sex-sff#comment-876</guid>
		<description>I've often heard it said that writers who belong to any subcultural group within a dominant culture have a leg up on writing from a perspective that is not their own because they have grown up having to understand both their group and the dominant group.  So, for example, a gay person grows up having to understand both straight cultural norms and gay cultural norms.  An African-American absorbs both White culture and Black culture.  A woman understands some of how men think and also how women think.  The group that is most crippled in understanding others is always the dominant group because they are not forced by living in a culture to always see things through two lenses, so to speak.   In America it is White men who have traditionally had the least pressure on them to see the world from more than one perspective.  

If you accept that idea, the fact that many male writers DO understand perspectives other than their own, and so so with great sensitivity and creativity, is actually remarkable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve often heard it said that writers who belong to any subcultural group within a dominant culture have a leg up on writing from a perspective that is not their own because they have grown up having to understand both their group and the dominant group.  So, for example, a gay person grows up having to understand both straight cultural norms and gay cultural norms.  An African-American absorbs both White culture and Black culture.  A woman understands some of how men think and also how women think.  The group that is most crippled in understanding others is always the dominant group because they are not forced by living in a culture to always see things through two lenses, so to speak.   In America it is White men who have traditionally had the least pressure on them to see the world from more than one perspective.  </p>
<p>If you accept that idea, the fact that many male writers DO understand perspectives other than their own, and so so with great sensitivity and creativity, is actually remarkable.</p>
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		<title>By: makoiyi</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-871</link>
		<dc:creator>makoiyi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 15:28:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>More to the point in sf/f what sexual encounters have you all found that feel right to you? There are a fair number in Jacquelyn Careyâ€™s Kushieltrilogy.''

Mikhyel and Temorii from 'Dance of the Rings' J.S.Fancher is one example I can think of the 'kind' of sex scene I would rather read personally, that touches on feelings rather than bodily parts.

I quote from the Prelude of 'Ring of Destiny' Jane S. Fancher:

&lt;em&gt;Fingertips extend. Iridescent motes ripple and flow, coalesce as skin touches skin, flare as fingers intwine&lt;/em&gt;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More to the point in sf/f what sexual encounters have you all found that feel right to you? There are a fair number in Jacquelyn Careyâ€™s Kushieltrilogy.&#8221;</p>
<p>Mikhyel and Temorii from &#8216;Dance of the Rings&#8217; J.S.Fancher is one example I can think of the &#8216;kind&#8217; of sex scene I would rather read personally, that touches on feelings rather than bodily parts.</p>
<p>I quote from the Prelude of &#8216;Ring of Destiny&#8217; Jane S. Fancher:</p>
<p><em>Fingertips extend. Iridescent motes ripple and flow, coalesce as skin touches skin, flare as fingers intwine</em>.</p>
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		<title>By: Lois Tilton</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/characterization/men-sex-sff#comment-861</link>
		<dc:creator>Lois Tilton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Jul 2006 02:31:07 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Yes, thanks for the boingboing link.

I have to think that this serves as a Cautionary Tale for authors thinking of self-publishing, that it may deprive you of a necessary objectively critical eye.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, thanks for the boingboing link.</p>
<p>I have to think that this serves as a Cautionary Tale for authors thinking of self-publishing, that it may deprive you of a necessary objectively critical eye.</p>
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