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	<title>Comments on: Got Questions:  Chapter Length</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 30 Aug 2008 12:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Katharine Kerr</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-19732</link>
		<dc:creator>Katharine Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Mar 2007 00:05:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-19732</guid>
		<description>Classic works of theatre tend to fall into 3 acts because of theories of what constituted a "well-made play".  The theories date from the late 1700s, I think but could be wrong on the date.  What follows is a very brief, bald summary:  Act One presents the hero with a problem and shows him scoring a small sucess; Act Two showls his enemies gathering and revising his earlier sucess; and Act Three, he either ultimately triumphs or triumphs at great cost to himself -- in tragedies he dies, basically.  

Some genre people, like Algis Budrys, have published treatises where they take this aged idea and expand it to fit novels, or try to make it fit anyway, by adding more reversals and triumphs.  I dislike such theories personally, for what that's worth.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Classic works of theatre tend to fall into 3 acts because of theories of what constituted a &#8220;well-made play&#8221;.  The theories date from the late 1700s, I think but could be wrong on the date.  What follows is a very brief, bald summary:  Act One presents the hero with a problem and shows him scoring a small sucess; Act Two showls his enemies gathering and revising his earlier sucess; and Act Three, he either ultimately triumphs or triumphs at great cost to himself &#8212; in tragedies he dies, basically.  </p>
<p>Some genre people, like Algis Budrys, have published treatises where they take this aged idea and expand it to fit novels, or try to make it fit anyway, by adding more reversals and triumphs.  I dislike such theories personally, for what that&#8217;s worth.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-19333</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Mar 2007 23:20:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-19333</guid>
		<description>I myself do not feel it necessary to make Parts run at relatively equal lengths.

For me, Parts function to separate sections due to time shifts, place shifts, major point of view shifts, or less tangibly-explained shifts based on a change of direction or a major event that, having transpired, throws everything into a new light.

So I might write a Part that runs 40 pages followed by one that runs 200 pages.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I myself do not feel it necessary to make Parts run at relatively equal lengths.</p>
<p>For me, Parts function to separate sections due to time shifts, place shifts, major point of view shifts, or less tangibly-explained shifts based on a change of direction or a major event that, having transpired, throws everything into a new light.</p>
<p>So I might write a Part that runs 40 pages followed by one that runs 200 pages.</p>
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		<title>By: Charles</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-19332</link>
		<dc:creator>Charles</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Mar 2007 23:15:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-19332</guid>
		<description>Chapter length isn't something I struggle with.  I'd have to go back and look and my writings that have progressed to multiple drafts of the actual novel -- after the initial detailed outline first step -- but my guess is my chapters fall somewhere in the 10 to 20 page range.

What I tend to do beyond chapter breaks -- which are more often than not due to switching to one of the other viewpoint characters -- is divide the book into sections or parts.

And I've come to notice over time that these Parts tend to fall along the lines of the different seasons within a year.  Winter itself plays an important role in what the characters can or cannot do in the story, as deep snows or freezes limit the characters ability to travel.  Also, the seasons influence the story arcs within the story as each season will naturally have certain events taking place as a part of how the society functions.

To ask a question about Part Length then:  If you divide your novel into Parts -- if Part 1 is 100 pages, do you feel the need to make each remaining parts of the book about the same length?  Or can Part Length within a book or over the course of a series vary widely?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chapter length isn&#8217;t something I struggle with.  I&#8217;d have to go back and look and my writings that have progressed to multiple drafts of the actual novel &#8212; after the initial detailed outline first step &#8212; but my guess is my chapters fall somewhere in the 10 to 20 page range.</p>
<p>What I tend to do beyond chapter breaks &#8212; which are more often than not due to switching to one of the other viewpoint characters &#8212; is divide the book into sections or parts.</p>
<p>And I&#8217;ve come to notice over time that these Parts tend to fall along the lines of the different seasons within a year.  Winter itself plays an important role in what the characters can or cannot do in the story, as deep snows or freezes limit the characters ability to travel.  Also, the seasons influence the story arcs within the story as each season will naturally have certain events taking place as a part of how the society functions.</p>
<p>To ask a question about Part Length then:  If you divide your novel into Parts &#8212; if Part 1 is 100 pages, do you feel the need to make each remaining parts of the book about the same length?  Or can Part Length within a book or over the course of a series vary widely?</p>
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		<title>By: Alison Croggon</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-10122</link>
		<dc:creator>Alison Croggon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Feb 2007 02:15:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-10122</guid>
		<description>He Kate - re Dostoevsky's use of acts and scenes: I read it in some introductory essay on Dosteovsky, and to be honest I can't remember where - probably the Penguin Crime and Punishment. But I haven't seen the actual breakdowns, though I expect he would have used the five act structure. It wouldn't surprise me if they were available somewhere, though. 

Just to be particularly abstruse: odd-numbered act structures are central to most classic plays. I don't know why, but even numbers - plays with four acts, say - just don't seem to work. Prose, on the other hand, seems to demand even numbers, a certain symmetry. Any crackpot theories? I might go and try to work one out now...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He Kate - re Dostoevsky&#8217;s use of acts and scenes: I read it in some introductory essay on Dosteovsky, and to be honest I can&#8217;t remember where - probably the Penguin Crime and Punishment. But I haven&#8217;t seen the actual breakdowns, though I expect he would have used the five act structure. It wouldn&#8217;t surprise me if they were available somewhere, though. </p>
<p>Just to be particularly abstruse: odd-numbered act structures are central to most classic plays. I don&#8217;t know why, but even numbers - plays with four acts, say - just don&#8217;t seem to work. Prose, on the other hand, seems to demand even numbers, a certain symmetry. Any crackpot theories? I might go and try to work one out now&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Tiedemann</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-10076</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Tiedemann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 13:33:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-10076</guid>
		<description>Ah, yes, Kate, the Beatles.  Well, that just goes to show how ridiculous such arbitrary measures can be.  (Though in some small embarrassment I admit to not liking them until &lt;em&gt;after&lt;/em&gt; they broke up.  Better late than never, though, eh?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, yes, Kate, the Beatles.  Well, that just goes to show how ridiculous such arbitrary measures can be.  (Though in some small embarrassment I admit to not liking them until <em>after</em> they broke up.  Better late than never, though, eh?)</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-10042</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:33:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-10042</guid>
		<description>But Mark, what about the Beatles?!?  Heh.  No, but seriously, you're absolutely right (in my opinion, anyway) about it being "a matter of growing into your capacities and away from preconceptions."


Alison, I'm glad to hear from another writer who uses theatrical forms as some element of the metastructure.

Are there extant notes from Dostoevsky showing his breakdowns?  Meanwhile, I'm going to have to go check out Austen's chapter lengths.  I never noticed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But Mark, what about the Beatles?!?  Heh.  No, but seriously, you&#8217;re absolutely right (in my opinion, anyway) about it being &#8220;a matter of growing into your capacities and away from preconceptions.&#8221;</p>
<p>Alison, I&#8217;m glad to hear from another writer who uses theatrical forms as some element of the metastructure.</p>
<p>Are there extant notes from Dostoevsky showing his breakdowns?  Meanwhile, I&#8217;m going to have to go check out Austen&#8217;s chapter lengths.  I never noticed.</p>
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		<title>By: Alison Croggon</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-10007</link>
		<dc:creator>Alison Croggon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 18:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-10007</guid>
		<description>When I'm writing novels, I find myself obsessed with the structure. My series has four books. Each book is divided into four parts of around five or six chapters each.  My chapters average around 20 pages, the shortest probably 10 pages, the longest maybe 30. Each chapter is divided into passages or "scenes", which I kind of think of as breaths. As a few others have said here, the metastructure of the narrative is imagined like a classic three act play (the middle two constitute the second act) - you know that Dostoevsky planned all his novels in scenes and acts? - In fact, I use a fair bit of dramatic technique in these novels:  I try to pace every scene as if it's a play, dialogue is important for the narrative flow and at the micro level it moves in "beats". But plays are a lot shorter, of course. I'm heading for the climax and denoument of the entire series now, it's a little scary... 

These books seem to demand long chapters; as someone said above, it's about "feel", the pace of that particular story.  But I have sworn that my next book will have no chapter longer than five pages each. I'm tired of writing long chapters. I envy writers who have books with little chapters in them. Jane Austen has no chapter longer than about five pages, and the story whizzes along.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I&#8217;m writing novels, I find myself obsessed with the structure. My series has four books. Each book is divided into four parts of around five or six chapters each.  My chapters average around 20 pages, the shortest probably 10 pages, the longest maybe 30. Each chapter is divided into passages or &#8220;scenes&#8221;, which I kind of think of as breaths. As a few others have said here, the metastructure of the narrative is imagined like a classic three act play (the middle two constitute the second act) - you know that Dostoevsky planned all his novels in scenes and acts? - In fact, I use a fair bit of dramatic technique in these novels:  I try to pace every scene as if it&#8217;s a play, dialogue is important for the narrative flow and at the micro level it moves in &#8220;beats&#8221;. But plays are a lot shorter, of course. I&#8217;m heading for the climax and denoument of the entire series now, it&#8217;s a little scary&#8230; </p>
<p>These books seem to demand long chapters; as someone said above, it&#8217;s about &#8220;feel&#8221;, the pace of that particular story.  But I have sworn that my next book will have no chapter longer than five pages each. I&#8217;m tired of writing long chapters. I envy writers who have books with little chapters in them. Jane Austen has no chapter longer than about five pages, and the story whizzes along.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark Tiedemann</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-9941</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark Tiedemann</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:17:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Knowing what it is you want the chapter to do--informationally and dramatically--is the only metric for chapter length.  I've read many books with one page chapters, squeezed in between four to eight page chapters, etc, and other books with thirty, forty, or even hundred page chapters...and then a handful of books with no chapters at all, at least not clearly defined as such.

This is a matter of growing into your capacities and away from preconceptions.  It reminds me of my adolescent days when in music I took the position that any song less than four minutes long was de facto not worth the bother.  That, in fact, songs over ten minutes fell into the "serious" category automatically.  Nonsense, of course, but it's a way of finding a quick and easy solution to a problem that entirely aesthetic and as such requires experience, sensitivity, and confidence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Knowing what it is you want the chapter to do&#8211;informationally and dramatically&#8211;is the only metric for chapter length.  I&#8217;ve read many books with one page chapters, squeezed in between four to eight page chapters, etc, and other books with thirty, forty, or even hundred page chapters&#8230;and then a handful of books with no chapters at all, at least not clearly defined as such.</p>
<p>This is a matter of growing into your capacities and away from preconceptions.  It reminds me of my adolescent days when in music I took the position that any song less than four minutes long was de facto not worth the bother.  That, in fact, songs over ten minutes fell into the &#8220;serious&#8221; category automatically.  Nonsense, of course, but it&#8217;s a way of finding a quick and easy solution to a problem that entirely aesthetic and as such requires experience, sensitivity, and confidence.</p>
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		<title>By: Stacy</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-9940</link>
		<dc:creator>Stacy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 15:00:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-9940</guid>
		<description>I'm at work on draft two of novel one, and have only used acts and scenes for structure - without any real intentions of having chapters at all.  What I basically have is plenty of small soft breaks with no large hard breaks.  Is it a really bad idea to have no "parts" other than scene breaks, with no books or acts or chapters?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m at work on draft two of novel one, and have only used acts and scenes for structure - without any real intentions of having chapters at all.  What I basically have is plenty of small soft breaks with no large hard breaks.  Is it a really bad idea to have no &#8220;parts&#8221; other than scene breaks, with no books or acts or chapters?</p>
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		<title>By: Carol Berg</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-9931</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Berg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Feb 2007 02:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/got-questions-chapter-length#comment-9931</guid>
		<description>The majority of my chapters end up 12-15 pages.  I don't plan it that way, but as Kate and Madeleine and others said, it is a matter of rhythm and feel.  And that happens to be my personal rhythm. 8 feels like not enough has happened to change things.  20 feels like I've wandered and lacked focus. But, then again, sometimes those lengths are exactly what's needed.

Each of my chapters is a small story arc made up of one or more scenes. A story arc moves characters and plot from one state to another.  Thus, within this arc "something happens" - which sounds fairly obvious, unless you've read a lot of beginners' writing, where whole chapters are devoted to description or world-building or internal monologue that changes nothing.  The "something that happens"--the summation of the scenes in the chapter--whether it is a discovery/realization or an encounter or a battle or whatever, must still fit within a larger story arc, serving to ratchet up the tension on the way to a turning point or climax and its denoument. I will often have three or four of these larger, multi-chapter story arcs in a book (sometimes labeled as "parts", sometimes not.)  And, of course, the entire story is a story arc in itself.

As Debbie said, no devices such as artificial cliffhangers or intrusive "predictions" (eg. "that was the worst mistake he ever made.") are needed to keep the reader engaged if the arc of the chapter has raised the level of tension in the reader.  (Which is not to say you can't leave the characters in a predicament!) 

Carol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The majority of my chapters end up 12-15 pages.  I don&#8217;t plan it that way, but as Kate and Madeleine and others said, it is a matter of rhythm and feel.  And that happens to be my personal rhythm. 8 feels like not enough has happened to change things.  20 feels like I&#8217;ve wandered and lacked focus. But, then again, sometimes those lengths are exactly what&#8217;s needed.</p>
<p>Each of my chapters is a small story arc made up of one or more scenes. A story arc moves characters and plot from one state to another.  Thus, within this arc &#8220;something happens&#8221; - which sounds fairly obvious, unless you&#8217;ve read a lot of beginners&#8217; writing, where whole chapters are devoted to description or world-building or internal monologue that changes nothing.  The &#8220;something that happens&#8221;&#8211;the summation of the scenes in the chapter&#8211;whether it is a discovery/realization or an encounter or a battle or whatever, must still fit within a larger story arc, serving to ratchet up the tension on the way to a turning point or climax and its denoument. I will often have three or four of these larger, multi-chapter story arcs in a book (sometimes labeled as &#8220;parts&#8221;, sometimes not.)  And, of course, the entire story is a story arc in itself.</p>
<p>As Debbie said, no devices such as artificial cliffhangers or intrusive &#8220;predictions&#8221; (eg. &#8220;that was the worst mistake he ever made.&#8221;) are needed to keep the reader engaged if the arc of the chapter has raised the level of tension in the reader.  (Which is not to say you can&#8217;t leave the characters in a predicament!) </p>
<p>Carol</p>
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