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	<title>Comments on: Point of View - Third Omniscient</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 10:13:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: EEC</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-77377</link>
		<dc:creator>EEC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Aug 2008 15:14:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Does anyone have any book recommendations on this topic??  Thanks much.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does anyone have any book recommendations on this topic??  Thanks much.</p>
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		<title>By: Misque Writer</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-61741</link>
		<dc:creator>Misque Writer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Feb 2008 03:24:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-61741</guid>
		<description>Regarding Snowmane’s resting place, I have to agree. I find the error of telling the future before it has happened ("Years later they would all look back on this moment and laugh") to be much more annoying than omniscient POV per se. I don't mind omni, but I don't like the spacetime continuum to be disturbed by the narrator unless time travel is explicitly part of the story.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Regarding Snowmane’s resting place, I have to agree. I find the error of telling the future before it has happened (&#8221;Years later they would all look back on this moment and laugh&#8221;) to be much more annoying than omniscient POV per se. I don&#8217;t mind omni, but I don&#8217;t like the spacetime continuum to be disturbed by the narrator unless time travel is explicitly part of the story.</p>
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		<title>By: Evan Leatherwood</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60760</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Leatherwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2008 23:12:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60760</guid>
		<description>Hello all.  Love the the blog.  This is my first comment.

Excellent question.

Third omniscient is actually much more common in contemporary writing than people think.  It's just that writers now tend to use a much more restrained version of it than they did in the 19th century.  So restrained it can look like some other form of third person.

Let's take one my favorite books and I'll show you what I mean.  "Neuromancer" by William Gibson looks, at first glance, to be written in limited third (or, tight third, as it is called here on Deep Genre).  That famous first sentence, and the many that sound so like it hover around perceptions that could be known to Case, the streetwise POV character: "The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.  'It's not like I'm using,' Case heard someone say ..."

Seems like straightforward tight third, right?

But what happens when, after many (delightful) pages of tight third, we get 

"Somewhere deep in the Sprawl’s ferro-concrete roots, a train drove a column of stale air through a tunnel.  The train itself was silent, gliding over its induction cushion, but displaced air made the tunnel sing, bass down into subsonics.  Vibration reached the room where he lay and caused dust to rise from the cracks in the dessicated parquet floor."

Sure, it's gorgeous prose but, what?  How could Case, who is awakened by the vibration, possibly know all of that?  It sort of sounds like Case thinking, but it can't be.  Did the writer just break with the first twenty pages and slide into omni?  Not quite.

You've actually been hearing a third person omniscient narrator the whole time, but one who just chooses to spend almost all of the book in tight third, only opening up for big, diorama-like passages once in a while, and never going inside anybody else's head even then.  Go back over the pages that you thought were tight third, and then you realize that the narrative voice is full of things that are too poetic and too cool for Case to think up or notice. Like rosewood doors, the exact personal history of minor characters, or the tailoring of somebody's shirt cuffs, etc.

Here's the trick:  The voice, the tone that the 3rd omni narrator uses, is so close to Case that we never really notice the divide, we were just effortlessly carried from wide screen to close up and back without even knowing what was happening.  The authorial voice is so close to a character who belongs in the moody, dark world of the novel that the commanding conceit of the omniscient narrator is hardly noticed, but the power of such a narrator is retained by the writer.  

Henry James called this "effaced narration" and often used limited-third-omniscient in his books.  Tons of the best writers use it today: John Banville (Kepler), Margaret Atwood (Handmaid's Tale), John Crowley (The Deep), Cormac McCarthy (The Road).  

The trick is the camouflage (the tone of the narration being one that is close to the characters, or to the feel of the book) and restraint (the omniscient voice chooses one or two characters whose heads we see into and that's it for the whole novel.  Furthermore, the wide-screen omni passages don't tend to go on too long, nor do they contain info that is out of joint with feel of the book's world and characters, even if the characters could never know it first-hand:  e.g. Gibson's omni voice is comfy telling us about an eerie train tunnel deep in the earth, but probably not about a kid's birthday party, even though it could technically choose to do both.  One would break the mood, take us too far from Case's head, the other one is just right).

Some form of limited third-person omniscient is almost always being used in contemporary fiction, even if it looks like some fuzzy version of limited (tight) third.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello all.  Love the the blog.  This is my first comment.</p>
<p>Excellent question.</p>
<p>Third omniscient is actually much more common in contemporary writing than people think.  It&#8217;s just that writers now tend to use a much more restrained version of it than they did in the 19th century.  So restrained it can look like some other form of third person.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s take one my favorite books and I&#8217;ll show you what I mean.  &#8220;Neuromancer&#8221; by William Gibson looks, at first glance, to be written in limited third (or, tight third, as it is called here on Deep Genre).  That famous first sentence, and the many that sound so like it hover around perceptions that could be known to Case, the streetwise POV character: &#8220;The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel.  &#8216;It&#8217;s not like I&#8217;m using,&#8217; Case heard someone say &#8230;&#8221;</p>
<p>Seems like straightforward tight third, right?</p>
<p>But what happens when, after many (delightful) pages of tight third, we get </p>
<p>&#8220;Somewhere deep in the Sprawl’s ferro-concrete roots, a train drove a column of stale air through a tunnel.  The train itself was silent, gliding over its induction cushion, but displaced air made the tunnel sing, bass down into subsonics.  Vibration reached the room where he lay and caused dust to rise from the cracks in the dessicated parquet floor.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sure, it&#8217;s gorgeous prose but, what?  How could Case, who is awakened by the vibration, possibly know all of that?  It sort of sounds like Case thinking, but it can&#8217;t be.  Did the writer just break with the first twenty pages and slide into omni?  Not quite.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve actually been hearing a third person omniscient narrator the whole time, but one who just chooses to spend almost all of the book in tight third, only opening up for big, diorama-like passages once in a while, and never going inside anybody else&#8217;s head even then.  Go back over the pages that you thought were tight third, and then you realize that the narrative voice is full of things that are too poetic and too cool for Case to think up or notice. Like rosewood doors, the exact personal history of minor characters, or the tailoring of somebody&#8217;s shirt cuffs, etc.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s the trick:  The voice, the tone that the 3rd omni narrator uses, is so close to Case that we never really notice the divide, we were just effortlessly carried from wide screen to close up and back without even knowing what was happening.  The authorial voice is so close to a character who belongs in the moody, dark world of the novel that the commanding conceit of the omniscient narrator is hardly noticed, but the power of such a narrator is retained by the writer.  </p>
<p>Henry James called this &#8220;effaced narration&#8221; and often used limited-third-omniscient in his books.  Tons of the best writers use it today: John Banville (Kepler), Margaret Atwood (Handmaid&#8217;s Tale), John Crowley (The Deep), Cormac McCarthy (The Road).  </p>
<p>The trick is the camouflage (the tone of the narration being one that is close to the characters, or to the feel of the book) and restraint (the omniscient voice chooses one or two characters whose heads we see into and that&#8217;s it for the whole novel.  Furthermore, the wide-screen omni passages don&#8217;t tend to go on too long, nor do they contain info that is out of joint with feel of the book&#8217;s world and characters, even if the characters could never know it first-hand:  e.g. Gibson&#8217;s omni voice is comfy telling us about an eerie train tunnel deep in the earth, but probably not about a kid&#8217;s birthday party, even though it could technically choose to do both.  One would break the mood, take us too far from Case&#8217;s head, the other one is just right).</p>
<p>Some form of limited third-person omniscient is almost always being used in contemporary fiction, even if it looks like some fuzzy version of limited (tight) third.</p>
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		<title>By: Sherwood Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60673</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherwood Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2008 19:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60673</guid>
		<description>Like Nich says, Flaubert gives us a first person narrator who is also omniscient: who questions how the cousin can know everything inside of everyone's minds?  Yet he does.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Like Nich says, Flaubert gives us a first person narrator who is also omniscient: who questions how the cousin can know everything inside of everyone&#8217;s minds?  Yet he does.</p>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60552</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2008 10:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60552</guid>
		<description>I think what Elizabeth and Marie are contending with here is free indirect narrative style, in which the third person narration takes on or is segued into the character/expected language or psychological landscape of the character involved. A given character would never be expected to use the word 'confabulation' so it has no place in the free indirect style taking place at that part of the third person narration which is giving an insight into that character's point of view.

If the writer dos not attend to this, then it would in a sense be breaking that 'fourth wall' Elizabeth refers to. 

Flaubert in expressing Emma Bovary's internal life was an absolute master of this aspect of free indirect narrative style, something which can positively load a passage with some marvellous ironies.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think what Elizabeth and Marie are contending with here is free indirect narrative style, in which the third person narration takes on or is segued into the character/expected language or psychological landscape of the character involved. A given character would never be expected to use the word &#8216;confabulation&#8217; so it has no place in the free indirect style taking place at that part of the third person narration which is giving an insight into that character&#8217;s point of view.</p>
<p>If the writer dos not attend to this, then it would in a sense be breaking that &#8216;fourth wall&#8217; Elizabeth refers to. </p>
<p>Flaubert in expressing Emma Bovary&#8217;s internal life was an absolute master of this aspect of free indirect narrative style, something which can positively load a passage with some marvellous ironies.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole L.</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60424</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Feb 2008 04:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60424</guid>
		<description>I'm about half way through One for Sorrow by Christopher Barzak, which seemed to be in first person when I started it and then briefly slipped into omni/first person (maybe?! is there such a creature?) by narrating things the character couldn't know ... however since I haven't finished it it's entirely possible that the story will resolve in such a way that it makes it possible for the first person narrator to know things he couldn't know. 

I guess my question is: is there such a thing as first person omni or is that a complete contradiction in terms? Was it a slip up or stretching poetic license? It definately threw me out of the story for a minute. Possible scenarios for 1st person-omni: when the main character is dead or is some kind of god-like being?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m about half way through One for Sorrow by Christopher Barzak, which seemed to be in first person when I started it and then briefly slipped into omni/first person (maybe?! is there such a creature?) by narrating things the character couldn&#8217;t know &#8230; however since I haven&#8217;t finished it it&#8217;s entirely possible that the story will resolve in such a way that it makes it possible for the first person narrator to know things he couldn&#8217;t know. </p>
<p>I guess my question is: is there such a thing as first person omni or is that a complete contradiction in terms? Was it a slip up or stretching poetic license? It definately threw me out of the story for a minute. Possible scenarios for 1st person-omni: when the main character is dead or is some kind of god-like being?</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60192</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 22:41:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60192</guid>
		<description>Last autumn I took the opening of a story I'd been writing in first person and tried to third person it.  As I mentioned on my lj, the oddest part was that when "I" became "she", the story began to read as omni.  I think this was the intrusive narrator element present in first person transferring over, although obviously the story wasn't written to be in omni.

The effect was so startling to me that I decided to go back with the first person.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Last autumn I took the opening of a story I&#8217;d been writing in first person and tried to third person it.  As I mentioned on my lj, the oddest part was that when &#8220;I&#8221; became &#8220;she&#8221;, the story began to read as omni.  I think this was the intrusive narrator element present in first person transferring over, although obviously the story wasn&#8217;t written to be in omni.</p>
<p>The effect was so startling to me that I decided to go back with the first person.</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60189</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 22:05:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60189</guid>
		<description>Bear -- Hmmm.  I know I've heard you describe it that way, and I heard that before I read the book, but it didn't register on me in that fashion; I felt like I was floating from one head to the next.  Which might make it an interesting case study regardless, as to why it came across that way.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bear &#8212; Hmmm.  I know I&#8217;ve heard you describe it that way, and I heard that before I read the book, but it didn&#8217;t register on me in that fashion; I felt like I was floating from one head to the next.  Which might make it an interesting case study regardless, as to why it came across that way.</p>
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		<title>By: ebear</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60175</link>
		<dc:creator>ebear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 17:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60175</guid>
		<description>Actually, Marie, W&#38;W is true omniscient, not serialized 3pl. There's a narrator throughout, who frequently steps outside of character heads and discusses things none of them could know. The narrator is an unintrusive one, however, who never breaks the fourth wall to address the reader or the story directly.

Which doesn't affect your critique of the book, of course, but I felt I should clarify in case anybody is looking for examples of the POV.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, Marie, W&amp;W is true omniscient, not serialized 3pl. There&#8217;s a narrator throughout, who frequently steps outside of character heads and discusses things none of them could know. The narrator is an unintrusive one, however, who never breaks the fourth wall to address the reader or the story directly.</p>
<p>Which doesn&#8217;t affect your critique of the book, of course, but I felt I should clarify in case anybody is looking for examples of the POV.</p>
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		<title>By: JanaLee Stocks</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60171</link>
		<dc:creator>JanaLee Stocks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2008 16:40:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/point-of-view-third-omniscient#comment-60171</guid>
		<description>I've just finished a piece done in the serialized third limited, and found it an interesting experiment, we'll see if anyone likes it enough to publish it.  The thing I found is that it was interesting to figure out what plot points and character points were needed in each chapter and who's POV brought those out the most strongly.  It does make for a longer book since more is being shown rather than just told about or inferred by the POV character in a single character limited third.  I don't know that this is necessarily a problem, but required really tight editing to keep the flow.  I think it's possible that this style can cause the attachment detachment problem that Marie mentioned, but I also found with my critique group that different people would attach to different characters and look forward to the chapters that went back to them, which made the read stronger.

Food for thought.

~J</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve just finished a piece done in the serialized third limited, and found it an interesting experiment, we&#8217;ll see if anyone likes it enough to publish it.  The thing I found is that it was interesting to figure out what plot points and character points were needed in each chapter and who&#8217;s POV brought those out the most strongly.  It does make for a longer book since more is being shown rather than just told about or inferred by the POV character in a single character limited third.  I don&#8217;t know that this is necessarily a problem, but required really tight editing to keep the flow.  I think it&#8217;s possible that this style can cause the attachment detachment problem that Marie mentioned, but I also found with my critique group that different people would attach to different characters and look forward to the chapters that went back to them, which made the read stronger.</p>
<p>Food for thought.</p>
<p>~J</p>
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