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	<title>Comments on: Uses and Abuses of Multiple Languages in SF/F Worldbuilding - A Question</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:13:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Sera</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-37300</link>
		<dc:creator>Sera</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Aug 2007 21:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>WOW! all this talk of languages.. interesting - intriguing and monumentally world changing.. at least in Aldurturran.. which is the world i am working on creating.  some of the names of things will have to change to reflect the structures of the languages in use... at the moment most of the world is named and created in elvish...  i will have more work cut out for me from teh sounds of it.. thanks for the insight.
sera</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WOW! all this talk of languages.. interesting - intriguing and monumentally world changing.. at least in Aldurturran.. which is the world i am working on creating.  some of the names of things will have to change to reflect the structures of the languages in use&#8230; at the moment most of the world is named and created in elvish&#8230;  i will have more work cut out for me from teh sounds of it.. thanks for the insight.<br />
sera</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole L.</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23841</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Apr 2007 19:54:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Have y'all seen the article in the New Yorker from last week: &lt;em&gt;Has a remote Amazonian tribe upended our understanding of language?&lt;/em&gt; Here's the link to the abstract &lt;a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/16/070416fa_fact_colapinto" rel="nofollow"&gt;&lt;/a&gt;
Basically it's creating an uproar in the linguistics world because the language they speak seems to directly challenge Chomsky's theory of language. 

But the language itself is also fascinating and no outsider has ever really become fluent in it, not in the 30 years since missionaries first contacted them. The language is incredibly tonal, to the point where the consanants and vowels can be dropped and people can communicate by whistling or humming! It's also an isolate (meaning not related to any of the other languages in Brazil).

Here's an excerpt:

&lt;blockquote&gt;The Piraha, Everett wrote, have no numbers, no fixed color terms, no perfect tense, no deep memory, no tradition of art, and no common terms of quantification. His most explosive claim was that Piraha displays no evidence of recursion, the linguistic operation of embedding one phrase inside another. Noam Chomsky has argued that recursion is the cornerstone of a â€œuniversal grammarâ€? shared by all languages. Steven Pinker calls Everettâ€™s paper â€œa bomb thrown into the party.â€?&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

They also don't keep reserves of food, care only about things that happened in someone's living memory (i.e. during their own lifetime or the lifetime of the generation before) and when someone goes out of sight, they've "gone out of existance". Same word for when a candle flame goes out. The "terms of quantification" thing means stuff like no fixed names for colors.

Pretty fascinating stuff, even when filtered through several layers of missionaries, linguists, journalists and language, and certainly food for thought when worldbuilding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Have y&#8217;all seen the article in the New Yorker from last week: <em>Has a remote Amazonian tribe upended our understanding of language?</em> Here&#8217;s the link to the abstract <a href="http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2007/04/16/070416fa_fact_colapinto" rel="nofollow"></a><br />
Basically it&#8217;s creating an uproar in the linguistics world because the language they speak seems to directly challenge Chomsky&#8217;s theory of language. </p>
<p>But the language itself is also fascinating and no outsider has ever really become fluent in it, not in the 30 years since missionaries first contacted them. The language is incredibly tonal, to the point where the consanants and vowels can be dropped and people can communicate by whistling or humming! It&#8217;s also an isolate (meaning not related to any of the other languages in Brazil).</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an excerpt:</p>
<blockquote><p>The Piraha, Everett wrote, have no numbers, no fixed color terms, no perfect tense, no deep memory, no tradition of art, and no common terms of quantification. His most explosive claim was that Piraha displays no evidence of recursion, the linguistic operation of embedding one phrase inside another. Noam Chomsky has argued that recursion is the cornerstone of a â€œuniversal grammarâ€? shared by all languages. Steven Pinker calls Everettâ€™s paper â€œa bomb thrown into the party.â€?</p></blockquote>
<p>They also don&#8217;t keep reserves of food, care only about things that happened in someone&#8217;s living memory (i.e. during their own lifetime or the lifetime of the generation before) and when someone goes out of sight, they&#8217;ve &#8220;gone out of existance&#8221;. Same word for when a candle flame goes out. The &#8220;terms of quantification&#8221; thing means stuff like no fixed names for colors.</p>
<p>Pretty fascinating stuff, even when filtered through several layers of missionaries, linguists, journalists and language, and certainly food for thought when worldbuilding.</p>
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		<title>By: Betsy Dornbusch</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23621</link>
		<dc:creator>Betsy Dornbusch</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2007 13:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23621</guid>
		<description>I'm glad you weighed in, Carol, because your books popped to my mind.  You don't seem to weigh in with too many foreign words--or if you do, they're integrated seemlessly enough that I've forgotten.  I think sparing clues work best.  

Gee, though, all this talk about linguistics really makes me feel ignorant and quite curious.  I see some studying in my near future.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad you weighed in, Carol, because your books popped to my mind.  You don&#8217;t seem to weigh in with too many foreign words&#8211;or if you do, they&#8217;re integrated seemlessly enough that I&#8217;ve forgotten.  I think sparing clues work best.  </p>
<p>Gee, though, all this talk about linguistics really makes me feel ignorant and quite curious.  I see some studying in my near future.</p>
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		<title>By: Ellen</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23582</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Apr 2007 03:56:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Perhaps oddly, the first book that comes to mind (well, after Tolkien) when I'm thinking about language use in SFF is Orson Scott Card's &lt;i&gt;The Speaker of the Dead&lt;/i&gt;. I say "oddly" because the other language in the book is Portuguese, rather than an invented language. I've always thought that he integrated the Portuguese bits pretty seamlessly; some are translated in italics, some are semi-translated through the speaker's or listener's thoughts, some are reacted to in English, some are just left for you to puzzle about. To this day there are several sentences in the book I've never entirely been able to understand, because I don't speak any Portuguese, but it hasn't lessened my enjoyment of it.

Most of the comments here are about the commenter's own experiences; does anyone have additional recommendations of books in which the languages are integrated well?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps oddly, the first book that comes to mind (well, after Tolkien) when I&#8217;m thinking about language use in SFF is Orson Scott Card&#8217;s <i>The Speaker of the Dead</i>. I say &#8220;oddly&#8221; because the other language in the book is Portuguese, rather than an invented language. I&#8217;ve always thought that he integrated the Portuguese bits pretty seamlessly; some are translated in italics, some are semi-translated through the speaker&#8217;s or listener&#8217;s thoughts, some are reacted to in English, some are just left for you to puzzle about. To this day there are several sentences in the book I&#8217;ve never entirely been able to understand, because I don&#8217;t speak any Portuguese, but it hasn&#8217;t lessened my enjoyment of it.</p>
<p>Most of the comments here are about the commenter&#8217;s own experiences; does anyone have additional recommendations of books in which the languages are integrated well?</p>
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		<title>By: Alison Croggon</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23538</link>
		<dc:creator>Alison Croggon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 20 Apr 2007 15:05:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Interesting subject. I guess I mainly use poetry to liguinstically differentiate between cultures (my other main methods are architecture and food and proper nouns too); so my vaguely northern European types use English poetic traditions, Anglo-Saxon alliteration, lyrical rhymes and so on, and my vaguely eastern European/Russian nomadic types have things like Russian folk songs or epic rhythms drawn from the Kalevala, and my Indian/African/Arabic types have poems that are cod Ur (Gilgamesh) or ghazals or other kinds of Persian poetry or oral African poems. It's fun to write. I intersperse the odd word in whichever language happens to be around, but lightly, as other have said, so no one is scrambling for a glossary. The books have a conceit that tthey are a translation (from Annaren) which permits me to use English as the commonly recognised tongue, equivalent to Annaren. The only language that is at all developed is the Speech, which all my major characters innately understand, and which is basically a Latin grammar with Celtic sounding elements. And also gets over various problems of communication that might otherwise be a bother. But basically I try to get everything to &lt;em&gt;sound&lt;/em&gt; right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting subject. I guess I mainly use poetry to liguinstically differentiate between cultures (my other main methods are architecture and food and proper nouns too); so my vaguely northern European types use English poetic traditions, Anglo-Saxon alliteration, lyrical rhymes and so on, and my vaguely eastern European/Russian nomadic types have things like Russian folk songs or epic rhythms drawn from the Kalevala, and my Indian/African/Arabic types have poems that are cod Ur (Gilgamesh) or ghazals or other kinds of Persian poetry or oral African poems. It&#8217;s fun to write. I intersperse the odd word in whichever language happens to be around, but lightly, as other have said, so no one is scrambling for a glossary. The books have a conceit that tthey are a translation (from Annaren) which permits me to use English as the commonly recognised tongue, equivalent to Annaren. The only language that is at all developed is the Speech, which all my major characters innately understand, and which is basically a Latin grammar with Celtic sounding elements. And also gets over various problems of communication that might otherwise be a bother. But basically I try to get everything to <em>sound</em> right.</p>
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		<title>By: Carol Berg</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23471</link>
		<dc:creator>Carol Berg</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Apr 2007 04:16:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23471</guid>
		<description>Much good has been said.  Use a light touch.  Don't obsess - or, if you do, don't force the reader to do the same.   I think of glossaries in the same way as I do that other fantasy aid (cliche) - the map.  Write so the reader is not forced to resort to them, whether or not they will be included in the final book.     

When I invent language elements, I worry more about their sound as any true linguistic construction.  I tend to use them to "evoke" a culture in the same way I use bits and pieces of art, custom, religion, manners, and so forth etc.   

Carol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Much good has been said.  Use a light touch.  Don&#8217;t obsess - or, if you do, don&#8217;t force the reader to do the same.   I think of glossaries in the same way as I do that other fantasy aid (cliche) - the map.  Write so the reader is not forced to resort to them, whether or not they will be included in the final book.     </p>
<p>When I invent language elements, I worry more about their sound as any true linguistic construction.  I tend to use them to &#8220;evoke&#8221; a culture in the same way I use bits and pieces of art, custom, religion, manners, and so forth etc.   </p>
<p>Carol</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23365</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 20:43:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23365</guid>
		<description>Ivy --

The kind of details you bring up are what fascinate me about languages, but they're also insanely hard to work into a story.  You can build them into a conlang, but that will be opaque to the reader unless you explain it in-text (or throw it up on your website as a bit of trivia, I suppose).  And the occasions when it's appropriate to explain it in-text are going to be limited.

What I'd love to be able to do is work that in for the pov language, the linguistic culture the story is taking place in, but Japanese speakers rarely stop to reflect on how in-group/out-group distinctions shift contextually, and Hebrew speakers rarely think about gender endings.  Or, to give an example from my own language, while I'll occasionally stop to note the differences between synonyms with Anglo-Saxon and Latinate roots (&lt;i&gt;understand&lt;/i&gt; vs. &lt;i&gt;comprehend&lt;/i&gt;, frex), that's not exactly common, and it would feel obtrusive if a character did it.  But I really do wish I could find a graceful way to do it, because language can reflect so much about gender, status, formality, perceptions of time, relationship to the natural world, and other fabulous things.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ivy &#8211;</p>
<p>The kind of details you bring up are what fascinate me about languages, but they&#8217;re also insanely hard to work into a story.  You can build them into a conlang, but that will be opaque to the reader unless you explain it in-text (or throw it up on your website as a bit of trivia, I suppose).  And the occasions when it&#8217;s appropriate to explain it in-text are going to be limited.</p>
<p>What I&#8217;d love to be able to do is work that in for the pov language, the linguistic culture the story is taking place in, but Japanese speakers rarely stop to reflect on how in-group/out-group distinctions shift contextually, and Hebrew speakers rarely think about gender endings.  Or, to give an example from my own language, while I&#8217;ll occasionally stop to note the differences between synonyms with Anglo-Saxon and Latinate roots (<i>understand</i> vs. <i>comprehend</i>, frex), that&#8217;s not exactly common, and it would feel obtrusive if a character did it.  But I really do wish I could find a graceful way to do it, because language can reflect so much about gender, status, formality, perceptions of time, relationship to the natural world, and other fabulous things.</p>
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		<title>By: Ivy</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23361</link>
		<dc:creator>Ivy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 19:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The easiest thing to throw in is foreign words, but the more important thing is grammar.  It reflects the culture's history and values.

In Japanese, much is left unspoken.  The idea is that the conversation is built on a shared understanding and lives in the space between both speakers.  So:

Wakarimasu ka?  Literally means "Understand?"  The second person pronoun is absent.  The grammar is clean.  There are only two irregular verbs and everything conjugates the same for first person, second person, third person, plural and singular.

Odorokimasu.  = I dance, you dance, he/she/it dances, we dance, they dance.

This echoes the simple beauty that has dominated traditional Japanese culture since Yoshimasa.  The language on in-group and out-group reflect the culture's values. 

Hebrew is built on three letter word roots.  It's gendered.  This makes sense for a language that takes meaning from the numeric value of words.  Chai (Chet + yud) means life with a numeric value of 18, so most Jews consider 18 a lucky or blessed number.  Gender differences matter and that's reflected in the language.  "Amerikai" and "Amerikait" for American depending on the gender of the person being spoken about.  Verbs as well.  "I understand" is "Ani mevin" or "Ani mevina" depending on if the speaker is male or female. 

We can see some of the history of the English people in the language.   Look at the words for animals and food.  Cow -- beef.  Chicken -- Poultry.  Deer -- Venison.  In every case the animal is named from the old English word and the food is named from the French.  This came in during the Norman Conquest where English-speaking peasants served French-speaking lords and ladies.  The language of the field was English and the language of the table was French.  

So how do your people think about communication and society.  What has happened to change or distort their language over time?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The easiest thing to throw in is foreign words, but the more important thing is grammar.  It reflects the culture&#8217;s history and values.</p>
<p>In Japanese, much is left unspoken.  The idea is that the conversation is built on a shared understanding and lives in the space between both speakers.  So:</p>
<p>Wakarimasu ka?  Literally means &#8220;Understand?&#8221;  The second person pronoun is absent.  The grammar is clean.  There are only two irregular verbs and everything conjugates the same for first person, second person, third person, plural and singular.</p>
<p>Odorokimasu.  = I dance, you dance, he/she/it dances, we dance, they dance.</p>
<p>This echoes the simple beauty that has dominated traditional Japanese culture since Yoshimasa.  The language on in-group and out-group reflect the culture&#8217;s values. </p>
<p>Hebrew is built on three letter word roots.  It&#8217;s gendered.  This makes sense for a language that takes meaning from the numeric value of words.  Chai (Chet + yud) means life with a numeric value of 18, so most Jews consider 18 a lucky or blessed number.  Gender differences matter and that&#8217;s reflected in the language.  &#8220;Amerikai&#8221; and &#8220;Amerikait&#8221; for American depending on the gender of the person being spoken about.  Verbs as well.  &#8220;I understand&#8221; is &#8220;Ani mevin&#8221; or &#8220;Ani mevina&#8221; depending on if the speaker is male or female. </p>
<p>We can see some of the history of the English people in the language.   Look at the words for animals and food.  Cow &#8212; beef.  Chicken &#8212; Poultry.  Deer &#8212; Venison.  In every case the animal is named from the old English word and the food is named from the French.  This came in during the Norman Conquest where English-speaking peasants served French-speaking lords and ladies.  The language of the field was English and the language of the table was French.  </p>
<p>So how do your people think about communication and society.  What has happened to change or distort their language over time?</p>
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		<title>By: sherwood</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23357</link>
		<dc:creator>sherwood</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Apr 2007 18:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>You mean I fumbled into actually saying something of worth?  *faints*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You mean I fumbled into actually saying something of worth?  *faints*</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine Robins</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/craft/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23307</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine Robins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Apr 2007 18:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kateelliott/misc/uses-and-abuses-of-multiple-language-in-sff-worldbuilding-a-question#comment-23307</guid>
		<description>&lt;i&gt;The story was lost in the unending panorama of data, however poetically presented.&lt;/i&gt;

Gods, Sherwood, may I steal that?  Best summation of a recurrent problem in fantastic literature I've ever seen.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The story was lost in the unending panorama of data, however poetically presented.</i></p>
<p>Gods, Sherwood, may I steal that?  Best summation of a recurrent problem in fantastic literature I&#8217;ve ever seen.</p>
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