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	<title>Comments on: Let&#8217;s Get Progressive &#8212; grammar neep</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:17:46 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: static bag</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2290</link>
		<dc:creator>static bag</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 29 Jun 2007 21:27:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2290</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;static bag...&lt;/strong&gt;

Hi. Thanks for the good read....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>static bag&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Hi. Thanks for the good read&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Katharine Kerr</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2289</link>
		<dc:creator>Katharine Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Aug 2006 21:39:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2289</guid>
		<description>Pat, thanks very much for that quote.

First of all, this bit is nonsense: "the verb of static existence". When we are talking about verb forms, "to be" is a syntactical marker. It implies nothing static. Even as a linking verb, its function is &lt;strong&gt;equivalence and similiarity&lt;/strong&gt;, not an indication of stasis.

Here are some random thoughts:

All language "immobilizes" moments in time. That's what language does. This is why Zen people insist that all language lies.

Things do occur without someone making them occur. This is why all Indo-European languages (and probably those from other language families too) contain impersonal verbs. It rains, il pleut, pluit, maen bwrw glaw, etc etc . . . .

Writers tend to find things that work for them intuitively. Then they try to put reasons these things work into words. I suspect, and this is just my own opininated opinion,Â that Gerrold is trying to do just that.Â Â  It doesn't mean the theory is going to work for everyone.Â 

Â </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat, thanks very much for that quote.</p>
<p>First of all, this bit is nonsense: &#8220;the verb of static existence&#8221;. When we are talking about verb forms, &#8220;to be&#8221; is a syntactical marker. It implies nothing static. Even as a linking verb, its function is <strong>equivalence and similiarity</strong>, not an indication of stasis.</p>
<p>Here are some random thoughts:</p>
<p>All language &#8220;immobilizes&#8221; moments in time. That&#8217;s what language does. This is why Zen people insist that all language lies.</p>
<p>Things do occur without someone making them occur. This is why all Indo-European languages (and probably those from other language families too) contain impersonal verbs. It rains, il pleut, pluit, maen bwrw glaw, etc etc . . . .</p>
<p>Writers tend to find things that work for them intuitively. Then they try to put reasons these things work into words. I suspect, and this is just my own opininated opinion,Â that Gerrold is trying to do just that.Â Â  It doesn&#8217;t mean the theory is going to work for everyone.Â </p>
<p>Â </p>
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		<title>By: Pat Lundrigan</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2288</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Lundrigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Aug 2006 17:35:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2288</guid>
		<description>Katharine-
I first heard about the dreaded "-ing" disease at Critter's workshop. Can't remember who gave it the name, but sometimes you see a paragraph just chock full of "ing's" (like the last para of my last post) and it gives the prose a sing song effect.
But who am I to talk? I love to use run-ons, fragments and neologisms.

As for the "to be" elimination idea, it's called E-prime, and David Gerrold talks about it in his book &lt;em&gt;Worlds of Wonder&lt;/em&gt;. He says:

&lt;blockquote&gt;" . . .Eliminating the verb of static existence makes it impossible for the author to assign arbitrary qualities to things. It keeps the writer from immobilizing moments in time. He or she can no longer use language to create those specific lies of meaning, and must instead work in a more dynamic world in which things occur because someone or something makes them occurâ€”a world in which things change with the observer."&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I don't quite grok that myself, but that's the theory.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katharine-<br />
I first heard about the dreaded &#8220;-ing&#8221; disease at Critter&#8217;s workshop. Can&#8217;t remember who gave it the name, but sometimes you see a paragraph just chock full of &#8220;ing&#8217;s&#8221; (like the last para of my last post) and it gives the prose a sing song effect.<br />
But who am I to talk? I love to use run-ons, fragments and neologisms.</p>
<p>As for the &#8220;to be&#8221; elimination idea, it&#8217;s called E-prime, and David Gerrold talks about it in his book <em>Worlds of Wonder</em>. He says:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8221; . . .Eliminating the verb of static existence makes it impossible for the author to assign arbitrary qualities to things. It keeps the writer from immobilizing moments in time. He or she can no longer use language to create those specific lies of meaning, and must instead work in a more dynamic world in which things occur because someone or something makes them occurâ€”a world in which things change with the observer.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I don&#8217;t quite grok that myself, but that&#8217;s the theory.</p>
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		<title>By: Katharine Kerr</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2287</link>
		<dc:creator>Katharine Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Aug 2006 22:31:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2287</guid>
		<description>Pat, here's what makes me think you missed the point:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Perhaps the Clarion instructor meant passive in a general sense and not a gramatical one&lt;/blockquote&gt;.

There is nothing "passive" about using present active participles.   My post centered around misunderstanding what "passive" means.

As far as the "-ing disease" goes, who told you this was a disease in the first place?  This is a sincere question, not sarcasm.  I'm curious as to where you heard this term.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat, here&#8217;s what makes me think you missed the point:</p>
<blockquote><p>Perhaps the Clarion instructor meant passive in a general sense and not a gramatical one</p></blockquote>
<p>.</p>
<p>There is nothing &#8220;passive&#8221; about using present active participles.   My post centered around misunderstanding what &#8220;passive&#8221; means.</p>
<p>As far as the &#8220;-ing disease&#8221; goes, who told you this was a disease in the first place?  This is a sincere question, not sarcasm.  I&#8217;m curious as to where you heard this term.</p>
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		<title>By: Pat Lundrigan</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2286</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Lundrigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Aug 2006 21:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2286</guid>
		<description>Katharine -
I alway preface my diagonosis of the "-ing disease" with the caveat that there is nothing technically wrong with it, but sometimes writers just have too many -ing's in a paragraph or on a page.

And, to be sure, real people are using "to be" forms all the time when they are speaking, but they are also using  lots of "ya knows" and "umm's" and "err's." Should we be including those in the stories we are writing? Ya know what I'm trying to say?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katharine -<br />
I alway preface my diagonosis of the &#8220;-ing disease&#8221; with the caveat that there is nothing technically wrong with it, but sometimes writers just have too many -ing&#8217;s in a paragraph or on a page.</p>
<p>And, to be sure, real people are using &#8220;to be&#8221; forms all the time when they are speaking, but they are also using  lots of &#8220;ya knows&#8221; and &#8220;umm&#8217;s&#8221; and &#8220;err&#8217;s.&#8221; Should we be including those in the stories we are writing? Ya know what I&#8217;m trying to say?</p>
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		<title>By: Katharine Kerr</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2285</link>
		<dc:creator>Katharine Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 20:32:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2285</guid>
		<description>Pat, I'm sorry, but you seem to have missed the point.Â  There is nothing wrong with present participles, ie, -ing forms. Progressive tenses show duration, not passivity.Â  This "-ing disease" is an artificial preference elevated into a rule, as one of the commentors above has already said, in fact.

I mentioned Clarion because it seems to be world leader in homogenized prose, but one of the problems with some genre writing is the limited tool set the writers allow themselves.Â  The other big problem comes with dialog.Â  Real people use forms of the verbs "to be" in their speech all the time.Â  (The use ofÂ such auxiliaries isÂ one of the distinguishing syntactical marks of English, in fact.)Â  Â  Eliminating all forms of "to be" leads to the wooden non-speech dialog one sees in a lot of genre writing.

Late addition to the above: I realized that I had too much to say to fit it into a comment so have written another grammar neep post.Â 

Â 

Â </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Pat, I&#8217;m sorry, but you seem to have missed the point.Â  There is nothing wrong with present participles, ie, -ing forms. Progressive tenses show duration, not passivity.Â  This &#8220;-ing disease&#8221; is an artificial preference elevated into a rule, as one of the commentors above has already said, in fact.</p>
<p>I mentioned Clarion because it seems to be world leader in homogenized prose, but one of the problems with some genre writing is the limited tool set the writers allow themselves.Â  The other big problem comes with dialog.Â  Real people use forms of the verbs &#8220;to be&#8221; in their speech all the time.Â  (The use ofÂ such auxiliaries isÂ one of the distinguishing syntactical marks of English, in fact.)Â  Â  Eliminating all forms of &#8220;to be&#8221; leads to the wooden non-speech dialog one sees in a lot of genre writing.</p>
<p>Late addition to the above: I realized that I had too much to say to fit it into a comment so have written another grammar neep post.Â </p>
<p>Â </p>
<p>Â </p>
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		<title>By: Pat Lundrigan</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2284</link>
		<dc:creator>Pat Lundrigan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Aug 2006 15:10:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2284</guid>
		<description>Perhaps the Clarion instructor meant passive in a general sense and not a gramatical one.

A story filled with sentences filled with lots of "was --ing"  is a sure sign of the dreaded ING disease, and the only cure is to cut those out and replace with more active verbs like "The man spotted the bird."

I always thought that the "eliminate 'to be' verb forms" exercise valuable not because it makes for grammatically perfect prose, but because re-writing sentences with a more active verbs makes for better sentences.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps the Clarion instructor meant passive in a general sense and not a gramatical one.</p>
<p>A story filled with sentences filled with lots of &#8220;was &#8211;ing&#8221;  is a sure sign of the dreaded ING disease, and the only cure is to cut those out and replace with more active verbs like &#8220;The man spotted the bird.&#8221;</p>
<p>I always thought that the &#8220;eliminate &#8216;to be&#8217; verb forms&#8221; exercise valuable not because it makes for grammatically perfect prose, but because re-writing sentences with a more active verbs makes for better sentences.</p>
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		<title>By: Laurie</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2283</link>
		<dc:creator>Laurie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Aug 2006 13:53:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2283</guid>
		<description>I'm a bit late to this thread, but here's a case for getting the grammar right.  I thought this was amusing.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060806.wr-rogers07/BNStory/Business/home</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m a bit late to this thread, but here&#8217;s a case for getting the grammar right.  I thought this was amusing.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060806.wr-rogers07/BNStory/Business/home" rel="nofollow">http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060806.wr-rogers07/BNStory/Business/home</a></p>
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		<title>By: Heather Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2282</link>
		<dc:creator>Heather Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 06 Aug 2006 03:03:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2282</guid>
		<description>As an English major and Latin minor at Western Washington University, I would like to thank all of you, both for recognizing the importance of purpose with regard to grammatical rules, and the value of learning another language as a means of evaluating our own.  So many professors spout strange "rules" aobut how to write, without validating themselves.  I believe that the form of writing (the grammar) can work with content if you can grasp the underlying purpose of grammatical constructions.  I also agree that Latin poetry beautifully demonstrates this principle. Ovid especially plays with grammar in order to put forth a certain tone and feel, and the two play off each other.  The result is captivatingly subtle.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As an English major and Latin minor at Western Washington University, I would like to thank all of you, both for recognizing the importance of purpose with regard to grammatical rules, and the value of learning another language as a means of evaluating our own.  So many professors spout strange &#8220;rules&#8221; aobut how to write, without validating themselves.  I believe that the form of writing (the grammar) can work with content if you can grasp the underlying purpose of grammatical constructions.  I also agree that Latin poetry beautifully demonstrates this principle. Ovid especially plays with grammar in order to put forth a certain tone and feel, and the two play off each other.  The result is captivatingly subtle.</p>
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		<title>By: everbloom</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/grammar-1/comment-page-1/#comment-2281</link>
		<dc:creator>everbloom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 05 Aug 2006 01:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/katharinekerr/misc/grammar-1#comment-2281</guid>
		<description>Katherine Kerr said,
&lt;blockquote&gt;British English, for instance, is much more forgiving of the passive voice than is American. It even turns up in adverts, which are generally trying to be snappy and effective like adverts everywhere. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Which would be why I didn't discover passive voice untill my grammar checker pointed out I was using it in a school science report. Australians use British English grammar "rules".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Katherine Kerr said,</p>
<blockquote><p>British English, for instance, is much more forgiving of the passive voice than is American. It even turns up in adverts, which are generally trying to be snappy and effective like adverts everywhere. </p></blockquote>
<p>Which would be why I didn&#8217;t discover passive voice untill my grammar checker pointed out I was using it in a school science report. Australians use British English grammar &#8220;rules&#8221;.</p>
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