Comments on: What’s your fiction worth?

By: Dani

Dani — Mon, 11 Sep 2006 02:42:24 +0000

the question as always is effectiveness,

I think that’s true for many things, not just birth control. Gunpowder, amputation, surgery (sure, Caesar’s mother survived the surgery that later became known as cesarean, but most women didn’t), etc.

For me, it’s not the “big things” (like using a MacBook to upload a virus to an alien ship), it’s the “little things” like having muskets that always seem to fire reliably, or wounds that never seem to get infected, etc. that knock me out of the story.

By: Lyssabits

Lyssabits — Sat, 09 Sep 2006 00:18:24 +0000

Laurie said,

Mind you, in movies, it doesnâ€™t bother me. Like in Independence Day when Jeff Goldblum and WIll Smith upload a virus to the mothership via their Macbook.

Heheh, that’s funny, in movies and TV shows it bothers me a lot when they get stuff wrong. I can forgive them the little details, but when when their plot revolves around something that so obviously wouldn’t work, then I get pretty irritated. I guess since movies tend to be more “realistic” than my books which are filled with dragons and magic, I feel the need to be more strict with them than I do with books. I suppose we all have our own, unique sets of standards we apply as we see fit.

By: Laurie

Laurie — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 23:51:20 +0000

Lyssabits said:

If the characters are unconcerned by the anachronisms among them, Iâ€™m not entirely sure why I should also be upset about them.

The characters may not know better, but the author probably should. If he busts out the proverbial COBOL programmer with the punch cards (I laughed out loud at that, btw) in his futuristic landscape, it had better be an episode of Duck Dodgers in the 24th (and a half) Century.

Mind you, in movies, it doesn’t bother me. Like in Independence Day when Jeff Goldblum and WIll Smith upload a virus to the mothership via their Macbook. I got a good laugh out of it. I guess I just take books more seriously, and expect a higher standard of the written word. I realize that’s silly, but I still feel that way.

By: kateelliott

kateelliott — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:30:31 +0000

Forms of birth control were known in the Middle Ages; the question as always is effectiveness, which is why the magic herb/magic amulet method used sometimes in fantasy novels - a version of the Pill, really - is a way of avoiding the issues raised by Mad and Katharine.

One reason I like research is that it forces me to confront issues I do not myself necessarily have to deal with in my own (modern American) life.

By: Lyssabits

Lyssabits — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 18:07:10 +0000

It seems to me that the necessity of research and accurate details can really vary pretty wildly depending on what sort of story you’re writing. I’m not overly concerned with accuracy when I read, which may make me easier to please than a lot of fans. My paramount concern when reading fantasy or science fiction is more about internal consistency than about consistency with historical reality. I can understand the viewpoint that if you’re asking us to believe unbelievable things, then you’d better not have a setting that is itself unbelievable.. but does that necessarily mean that your setting has to be historically accurate? If the characters are unconcerned by the anachronisms among them, I’m not entirely sure why I should also be upset about them.

There’s a great series of Sci Fi books I love, where the technology and such are really just there to be in service to the story. I don’t know anything really about theoretical physics, and so when this author tells me that something is possible, I believe her. She invented all kinds of whacky new technology in order to write the story she wanted. I’m sure if I showed these books to my physicist friends they’d tell me why her theories are wrong, but that’s not important to me. As long as that author then doesn’t contradict herself, she can violate all the laws of physics she want. This is the author’s world, they write the laws, they ARE the laws. She in fact violates or at least severely bends genetic laws all the time, something I actually do know about, but it doesn’t really bother me. In this world, this is how she says genetics work, and so I take her at her world.

On the other hand, you could make the argument that if you really put a lot of effort into making things accurate, your book will appeal to a wider audience, not just those of us who are willing to completely suspend all our belief in the service of a good story. At the end of the day though, no one’s perfect, and you’re not going to get everything right or please everyone. So you may as well write the book you want to write, and try not to worry too much about the book each of your readers would like you to write, because everyone will have a different idea about what that book should be.

By: Katharine Kerr

Katharine Kerr — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 08:22:49 +0000

The Greeks and Romans had a variety of birth control devices, but I’ve not heard of any of them being in use in the Middle Ages except for anal intercourse, which of course the Church condemned. Some of the ancient ones, like the herb Dani referred to (found in Greece, actually) did work well. Others, like an olive pit wrapped in linen that was soaked in vinegar or lemon juice, worked as long as they were notÂ dislodged from the mouth of the cervix, but as you can doubtless imagine, they often were dislodged. Which is why the classical Greeks practiced infanticide in order to keep down the size of their families.

The unmarried pregnancy had socio-economic consequences — I was mostly agreeing with you, Mad, from another direction. but there’s no doubt that mere loss of virginity in most societies of those times was enough to produce the same consequences.

By: Madeleine Robins

Madeleine Robins — Fri, 08 Sep 2006 05:47:19 +0000

There are forms of birth control that were in use in pre-modern times; they weren’t foolproof, and some of them were damned dangerous, but they were out there. I wasn’t just talking about the danger of pregnancy or disease (although both of them were obvious pitfalls), so much as the socio-economic consequences of virginity and its loss. Depending on your social and economic status and the religious beliefs and the local taboos about women, loss of virginity could be a rite of passage or an epic tragedy–which is why any Regency writer who has read Pride and Prejudice and then writes a book in which the heroine blithely surrenders to sex outside marriage had better have a pristine setup if they don’t want to lose me.

By: Kevin Andrew Murphy

Kevin Andrew Murphy — Thu, 07 Sep 2006 22:46:27 +0000

Good lord, the magic birth-control herbs and amulets. They crop up again and again. And while they’re fine if you want a world with a modern sensibility, like for example Liavek, they’re one of the quickest ways to kill believability in pre-modern setting.

By: Vivian Francis

Vivian Francis — Thu, 07 Sep 2006 21:34:27 +0000

I think when an artist has respect for their work it shows, and gives the work something else. Maybe more depth of feeling. Here is a vintage sci-fi print which captures the enthusiasm for space travel iconic to earlier decades. (Scroll down a bit to 01 septembre, 2006)

Of course, it seems likely this ship is breaking a few laws of physics, but I don’t think this is what Katharine meant by getting the facts right. (Sorry if I am putting words in your mouth) In our universe the ship may be an impossible construction, but it is perfect within this image.

By: Dani

Dani — Thu, 07 Sep 2006 21:09:09 +0000

â€œwhy canâ€™t you invent a magic herb or amulet?â€ variety over this!!! Some readers just plain didnâ€™t understand that historically there would have been no birth control in those days

Well there was a plant in what is now Lebanon that worked quite well as a herbal birth control. The problem was that it was harvested into extinction.