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	<title>Comments on: Devil in the Details Redux: China Dolls and Chandlers</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 10 Jan 2009 03:25:30 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Muse of Ire</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4436</link>
		<dc:creator>Muse of Ire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 20:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;But when the set dresser raids a modern mall aromatherapy store for the candles, which appear in just about every scene, Iâ€™m going, Iâ€™m sorry, whatâ€™s the tech level here?  Donâ€™t the poor ever use rushdips?  Are you simply drowning in beeswax and bayberries that everyone can afford these, or do the dragons crap paraffin?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I laughed myself sick at a &lt;em&gt;Masterpiece Theater &lt;/em&gt; version of &lt;em&gt;Moll Flanders &lt;/em&gt;in which Moll makes love surrounded by a sea of candles. Such a 20th century notion -- in Defoe's day, those candles would have cost more than Moll could ever have made in a lifetime of whoring.

Conversely, I was also annoyed in the opening scenes of the movie &lt;em&gt;Elizabeth&lt;/em&gt; (well, the whole movie was one vast anachronism and generally wrong-headed) when they portrayed Mary's court as lit by one or two feeble candles. I'm sure it was a metaphor, but for God's sake. Mary might not have been the best queen, but she had enough money to light her palace properly!

The thing is, I can forgive these lapses if they're isolated examples in an otherwise entertaining work, but usually they are symptomatic of a general overall carelessness or (to repeat myself) wrong-headedness.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>But when the set dresser raids a modern mall aromatherapy store for the candles, which appear in just about every scene, Iâ€™m going, Iâ€™m sorry, whatâ€™s the tech level here?  Donâ€™t the poor ever use rushdips?  Are you simply drowning in beeswax and bayberries that everyone can afford these, or do the dragons crap paraffin?</p></blockquote>
<p>I laughed myself sick at a <em>Masterpiece Theater </em> version of <em>Moll Flanders </em>in which Moll makes love surrounded by a sea of candles. Such a 20th century notion &#8212; in Defoe&#8217;s day, those candles would have cost more than Moll could ever have made in a lifetime of whoring.</p>
<p>Conversely, I was also annoyed in the opening scenes of the movie <em>Elizabeth</em> (well, the whole movie was one vast anachronism and generally wrong-headed) when they portrayed Mary&#8217;s court as lit by one or two feeble candles. I&#8217;m sure it was a metaphor, but for God&#8217;s sake. Mary might not have been the best queen, but she had enough money to light her palace properly!</p>
<p>The thing is, I can forgive these lapses if they&#8217;re isolated examples in an otherwise entertaining work, but usually they are symptomatic of a general overall carelessness or (to repeat myself) wrong-headedness.</p>
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		<title>By: Muneraven</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4432</link>
		<dc:creator>Muneraven</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 15:50:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>First of all, I do sympathize with the frustration of getting shucked right out of a tale by unbelievable details.  It has happened to me as well, and I don't like it either.  But I think the demands on a writer to get every detail perfect often goes too far.

How long do we expect writers to take in writing a book in order to get every detail correct and how much expertise are they required to have?

I attended a Con last year where an author was literally beseiged by readers who only wanted to debate the veracity of the details in his latest book.  It was AWFUL.  I am not a fan of this particular writer, but I wanted to save him from his own fans, you know?  It was so weird.  It was like these readers read his work exclusively so that they could find his mistakes and then come to a public forum and point out every possible niggling detail he got wrong.  I have two kids with high-functioning autism who have special interests and obsessions and tack-sharp memories, and this Con event looked for all the world to me like some demented Roman entertainment where a writer is thrown to the Aspies.  Good lord!  Did anyone notice the characters or the story itself?  Apparently not.  All these readers were wrapped up in their various lists of supposed errors.

At some point I think the reader bears some responsibility for not getting distracted by details that may not be absolutely correct.   A gaping plot hole is hard to read around, but really, if a reader is unable to overlook one or two minor inaccurate details, is the problem really the writer or is the reader coming to the book with a skewed set of expectations?

I do think the writer should try very hard to get the details right.  However, I for one will NEVER come to a reading or panel and nit-pick a writer to death over his or her errors.  I won't do it in my blog, either.  Writers work hard, often writing as a second job, and get paid crap so that readers (in America) can still get a paperback for less than ten bucks.  Frankly I feel lucky that anyone is writing books at all.  So if a writer doesn't get every detail right, well, I try to forgive that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all, I do sympathize with the frustration of getting shucked right out of a tale by unbelievable details.  It has happened to me as well, and I don&#8217;t like it either.  But I think the demands on a writer to get every detail perfect often goes too far.</p>
<p>How long do we expect writers to take in writing a book in order to get every detail correct and how much expertise are they required to have?</p>
<p>I attended a Con last year where an author was literally beseiged by readers who only wanted to debate the veracity of the details in his latest book.  It was AWFUL.  I am not a fan of this particular writer, but I wanted to save him from his own fans, you know?  It was so weird.  It was like these readers read his work exclusively so that they could find his mistakes and then come to a public forum and point out every possible niggling detail he got wrong.  I have two kids with high-functioning autism who have special interests and obsessions and tack-sharp memories, and this Con event looked for all the world to me like some demented Roman entertainment where a writer is thrown to the Aspies.  Good lord!  Did anyone notice the characters or the story itself?  Apparently not.  All these readers were wrapped up in their various lists of supposed errors.</p>
<p>At some point I think the reader bears some responsibility for not getting distracted by details that may not be absolutely correct.   A gaping plot hole is hard to read around, but really, if a reader is unable to overlook one or two minor inaccurate details, is the problem really the writer or is the reader coming to the book with a skewed set of expectations?</p>
<p>I do think the writer should try very hard to get the details right.  However, I for one will NEVER come to a reading or panel and nit-pick a writer to death over his or her errors.  I won&#8217;t do it in my blog, either.  Writers work hard, often writing as a second job, and get paid crap so that readers (in America) can still get a paperback for less than ten bucks.  Frankly I feel lucky that anyone is writing books at all.  So if a writer doesn&#8217;t get every detail right, well, I try to forgive that.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Andrew Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4435</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Andrew Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 04:43:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kevinamurphy/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers#comment-4435</guid>
		<description>Constance,

Hell if I know. The scene had the characters going to the opera house and the two mooks, Frick and Frack (Vienna in joke), were wearing black tuxedos, properly termed &lt;em&gt;Smoking&lt;/em&gt; in German but &lt;em&gt;esmoquin&lt;/em&gt; in Spanish.

I'm guessing the copyeditor proudly remembered his/her European tour and changed the word to what s/he'd heard, rather than have me use the word &lt;em&gt;Smoking&lt;/em&gt; which sounds so dreadfully English, even if it's proper German (as both my German mother and her college German literature professor stressed to me).

This is the same book where I had the ghost of Guy Fawkes call Dr. John Dee "A wicked old nigromancer" (the proper term for Fawkes' era) and the copyeditor, being from Atlanta, changed it to the period alternate "negromancer," which may not look like the dreaded N-word, but sure as hell looks like an embarrassing typo. The same copyeditor changed the Cockney girl's "mingy" to "mangy."

This experience led me to reinvent the wheel and send a cover letter to the copyeditor including all variant spellings, punctuation, regional and historical dialect and whatnot I was using throughout a work. Thankfully the next copyeditor I dealt with was nice and sane, and even sent me a personal note thanking me for the style sheet.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Constance,</p>
<p>Hell if I know. The scene had the characters going to the opera house and the two mooks, Frick and Frack (Vienna in joke), were wearing black tuxedos, properly termed <em>Smoking</em> in German but <em>esmoquin</em> in Spanish.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m guessing the copyeditor proudly remembered his/her European tour and changed the word to what s/he&#8217;d heard, rather than have me use the word <em>Smoking</em> which sounds so dreadfully English, even if it&#8217;s proper German (as both my German mother and her college German literature professor stressed to me).</p>
<p>This is the same book where I had the ghost of Guy Fawkes call Dr. John Dee &#8220;A wicked old nigromancer&#8221; (the proper term for Fawkes&#8217; era) and the copyeditor, being from Atlanta, changed it to the period alternate &#8220;negromancer,&#8221; which may not look like the dreaded N-word, but sure as hell looks like an embarrassing typo. The same copyeditor changed the Cockney girl&#8217;s &#8220;mingy&#8221; to &#8220;mangy.&#8221;</p>
<p>This experience led me to reinvent the wheel and send a cover letter to the copyeditor including all variant spellings, punctuation, regional and historical dialect and whatnot I was using throughout a work. Thankfully the next copyeditor I dealt with was nice and sane, and even sent me a personal note thanking me for the style sheet.</p>
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		<title>By: Kate Elliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4424</link>
		<dc:creator>Kate Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kevinamurphy/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers#comment-4424</guid>
		<description>"Common knowledge" is the bane of fantasy writers!  Especially when readers (or, in cases I've heard of, copy editors) think they know what they do not know.

I recall a complaint of Crown of Stars, in which the reviewer ridiculed the tiny armies, noting the much larger Roman legions and Germanic hordes, or whatever.  Only I was doing my best to be true to the times I was writing about (based on early medieval Europe).

But I too despair, knowing I will never get all the details right.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Common knowledge&#8221; is the bane of fantasy writers!  Especially when readers (or, in cases I&#8217;ve heard of, copy editors) think they know what they do not know.</p>
<p>I recall a complaint of Crown of Stars, in which the reviewer ridiculed the tiny armies, noting the much larger Roman legions and Germanic hordes, or whatever.  Only I was doing my best to be true to the times I was writing about (based on early medieval Europe).</p>
<p>But I too despair, knowing I will never get all the details right.</p>
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		<title>By: Constance Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4425</link>
		<dc:creator>Constance Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Feb 2007 03:29:43 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well, everyone knows that Austria was long a part of the Spanish empire, i.e. the Spanish Riding School.

Was that the reason?  For speaking Spanish in Vienna, I mean?

Love, C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, everyone knows that Austria was long a part of the Spanish empire, i.e. the Spanish Riding School.</p>
<p>Was that the reason?  For speaking Spanish in Vienna, I mean?</p>
<p>Love, C.</p>
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		<title>By: Sabrina</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4434</link>
		<dc:creator>Sabrina</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 22:24:17 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>This brings to mind a book I'm reading. The 1996 edition of The Tough Guide to Fantasyland by Dianne Wynne Jones. It's like a humorous encyclopedia for every aspect of a "traditional" fantasy novel. One of the topics she keeps touching on is the lack of most insects (peple wear silk, but there's no mention of processing it from silkworms) nor animals like sheep and cattle or wild animals in the forest or other terrain. People wear leather, but there's no tannery, etc. On the one hand, the reader generally assumes these things exist so maybe it doesn't need to be said, but on the other, an author should include some of the smaller details to give the fantastical world a sense of realism.

And I love that line, "The suspenders of disbelief were snapped."</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This brings to mind a book I&#8217;m reading. The 1996 edition of The Tough Guide to Fantasyland by Dianne Wynne Jones. It&#8217;s like a humorous encyclopedia for every aspect of a &#8220;traditional&#8221; fantasy novel. One of the topics she keeps touching on is the lack of most insects (peple wear silk, but there&#8217;s no mention of processing it from silkworms) nor animals like sheep and cattle or wild animals in the forest or other terrain. People wear leather, but there&#8217;s no tannery, etc. On the one hand, the reader generally assumes these things exist so maybe it doesn&#8217;t need to be said, but on the other, an author should include some of the smaller details to give the fantastical world a sense of realism.</p>
<p>And I love that line, &#8220;The suspenders of disbelief were snapped.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Debbie White</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4427</link>
		<dc:creator>Debbie White</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 21:43:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/kevinamurphy/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers#comment-4427</guid>
		<description>Ah, yes, blacksmithing. *sigh*  I'm a journeyman blacksmith. I've even dabbled in bladesmithing.  One nit-pick that never ceases to annoy me is when writers talk about a smith swinging his sledgehammer.  Yes, big, heavy hammers are occasionally used in smithing, but only rarely.  The reason you heat the metal is to make it &lt;em&gt;malleable&lt;/em&gt;.  It doesn't take a huge amount of strength or a super-heavy hammer.  Women and kids can blacksmith.

The other thing that really gets me is occassionally reading of a hero feeding his horse only grain.  If you don't feed your horse a ration consisting of at least 50% grass/hay (by dry weight), then your horse is going to colic and die on you.  Also, even the best endurance horse can't canter for hours on end.  For long distance riding (like in competitions), most of the riding is done at a trot.

And so on.

I try my best to actually try any activity that is a major part of my story, including the upkeep and use of a sword/bow/staff/dagger/armor, glassworking, blacksmithing, horseback riding, camel riding, basket weaving, baking, etc.  I'm lucky to live near an area where historical skills are preserved and taught, so I can at least consult with an expert even if I haven't done something myself.  Yet I still despair the number of small details I'm probably getting wrong.  Worse still, sometimes I know that people are going to think I wrote something wrong just because the incorrect information about a subject has become such 'common knowledge.'  Ah, well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, yes, blacksmithing. *sigh*  I&#8217;m a journeyman blacksmith. I&#8217;ve even dabbled in bladesmithing.  One nit-pick that never ceases to annoy me is when writers talk about a smith swinging his sledgehammer.  Yes, big, heavy hammers are occasionally used in smithing, but only rarely.  The reason you heat the metal is to make it <em>malleable</em>.  It doesn&#8217;t take a huge amount of strength or a super-heavy hammer.  Women and kids can blacksmith.</p>
<p>The other thing that really gets me is occassionally reading of a hero feeding his horse only grain.  If you don&#8217;t feed your horse a ration consisting of at least 50% grass/hay (by dry weight), then your horse is going to colic and die on you.  Also, even the best endurance horse can&#8217;t canter for hours on end.  For long distance riding (like in competitions), most of the riding is done at a trot.</p>
<p>And so on.</p>
<p>I try my best to actually try any activity that is a major part of my story, including the upkeep and use of a sword/bow/staff/dagger/armor, glassworking, blacksmithing, horseback riding, camel riding, basket weaving, baking, etc.  I&#8217;m lucky to live near an area where historical skills are preserved and taught, so I can at least consult with an expert even if I haven&#8217;t done something myself.  Yet I still despair the number of small details I&#8217;m probably getting wrong.  Worse still, sometimes I know that people are going to think I wrote something wrong just because the incorrect information about a subject has become such &#8216;common knowledge.&#8217;  Ah, well.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Andrew Murphy</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4426</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin Andrew Murphy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 20:40:24 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I hear you on the blacksmith angle.  I've a story (published) where one of the semi- important peripheral bits was glassmaking.  Unfortunately, I got a detail wrong about a process, which I realized a couple years later when I watched a documentary about the Blenko glassworks.

Of course, things can always be corrected in later publications and versions.  My short story currently being adapted for film, "Clove Smoke," had an incorrect military uniform detail in the published text, but the producer, on consultation with wardrobe (which included a military history buff), had an easy fix simply by changing wars from Vietnam to Iraq, where the detail fit, the detail being camouflage uniforms.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I hear you on the blacksmith angle.  I&#8217;ve a story (published) where one of the semi- important peripheral bits was glassmaking.  Unfortunately, I got a detail wrong about a process, which I realized a couple years later when I watched a documentary about the Blenko glassworks.</p>
<p>Of course, things can always be corrected in later publications and versions.  My short story currently being adapted for film, &#8220;Clove Smoke,&#8221; had an incorrect military uniform detail in the published text, but the producer, on consultation with wardrobe (which included a military history buff), had an easy fix simply by changing wars from Vietnam to Iraq, where the detail fit, the detail being camouflage uniforms.</p>
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		<title>By: ehjones</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4415</link>
		<dc:creator>ehjones</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 19:10:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>More bothersome to me than those small details are glaring mistakes, particularly in technology.  I once critiqued a short story in which the main character, a blacksmith, forged "the strongest and finest blade ever made" by melting some iron and pouring it into a mold.  That's it.  Just a mold.  No forming an iron bar, no folding in carbon, no hammering into shape, nothing.  He poured liquid metal into a ceramic mold, let it cool for a few days, and then took out this perfect, sharp, shining sword.  And this was in a world where other characters walked around with "mirror-bright blades of fine steel", giving the impression that the technology for making good steel was there.
When I was working on my own novel, I had a passage that I wanted in there in which a sea captain teaches our young hero how to use a sextant for navigation.  I have never held, touched, or seen a sextant other than in photos.  I spent several weeks researching the use of the sextant and getting a basic idea of how one was used, and even then I got it wrong.  But thanks to a friend who sent me a link to Nova Online, I was finally able to get the passage to be fairly accurate, even though I had to play a little loose with the descriptions of the calculations involved.
That's what irks me most, I think.  If you're unfamiliar with  a specific activity or item that plays a major part in your book, or even a single scene, then research it, and most especially, vet it with someone who know what he's talking about!  It takes only a tiny bit of effort to learn what you need to in order to make your text believable, and yet many authors choose the lazy path of thinking they know it all already.  My lesson in celestial navigation may not be as detailed as I'd hoped (since it's far more complex than I'd imagined), but at least what I put in there is accurate enough for a layman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More bothersome to me than those small details are glaring mistakes, particularly in technology.  I once critiqued a short story in which the main character, a blacksmith, forged &#8220;the strongest and finest blade ever made&#8221; by melting some iron and pouring it into a mold.  That&#8217;s it.  Just a mold.  No forming an iron bar, no folding in carbon, no hammering into shape, nothing.  He poured liquid metal into a ceramic mold, let it cool for a few days, and then took out this perfect, sharp, shining sword.  And this was in a world where other characters walked around with &#8220;mirror-bright blades of fine steel&#8221;, giving the impression that the technology for making good steel was there.<br />
When I was working on my own novel, I had a passage that I wanted in there in which a sea captain teaches our young hero how to use a sextant for navigation.  I have never held, touched, or seen a sextant other than in photos.  I spent several weeks researching the use of the sextant and getting a basic idea of how one was used, and even then I got it wrong.  But thanks to a friend who sent me a link to Nova Online, I was finally able to get the passage to be fairly accurate, even though I had to play a little loose with the descriptions of the calculations involved.<br />
That&#8217;s what irks me most, I think.  If you&#8217;re unfamiliar with  a specific activity or item that plays a major part in your book, or even a single scene, then research it, and most especially, vet it with someone who know what he&#8217;s talking about!  It takes only a tiny bit of effort to learn what you need to in order to make your text believable, and yet many authors choose the lazy path of thinking they know it all already.  My lesson in celestial navigation may not be as detailed as I&#8217;d hoped (since it&#8217;s far more complex than I&#8217;d imagined), but at least what I put in there is accurate enough for a layman.</p>
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		<title>By: Gyp Oriens</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/craft/devil-in-the-details-redux-china-dolls-and-chandlers/comment-page-1/#comment-4433</link>
		<dc:creator>Gyp Oriens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Feb 2007 07:37:53 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Maybe I should become a copyeditor! Looks like there's a market for those.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe I should become a copyeditor! Looks like there&#8217;s a market for those.</p>
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