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	<title>Comments on: And the Moral of Our Story</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 20:49:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Constance Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8735</link>
		<dc:creator>Constance Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 17 Jan 2007 17:54:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8735</guid>
		<description>I dunno.  People really don't think Hollywood is sexist?

The male gaze and how the guys who mostly run the place say out front how much they like looking at naked women and can't stand the thought of naked men?  It's hard not to see Hollywood as sexist.  Certainly many of the women who work there think so, whether they are in the offices or on the screen.

But in any case, whether one agrees with that perception or not, this is a fantastic article, one that has been, if you will excuse me, um, &lt;em&gt;seminal&lt;/em&gt; in film criticism history, that you might like to look at:

Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema (1975) - Laura Mulvey 

Originally Published - Screen 16.3 Autumn 1975 pp. 6-18.

&lt;a href="http://www.brown.edu/Departments/MCM/nothing/index.php/Visual_Pleasure_and_Narrative_Cinema" rel="nofollow"&gt;You can find the full text of the article here&lt;/a&gt;.

Love, C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I dunno.  People really don&#8217;t think Hollywood is sexist?</p>
<p>The male gaze and how the guys who mostly run the place say out front how much they like looking at naked women and can&#8217;t stand the thought of naked men?  It&#8217;s hard not to see Hollywood as sexist.  Certainly many of the women who work there think so, whether they are in the offices or on the screen.</p>
<p>But in any case, whether one agrees with that perception or not, this is a fantastic article, one that has been, if you will excuse me, um, <em>seminal</em> in film criticism history, that you might like to look at:</p>
<p>Visual Pleasure and Narrative Cinema (1975) - Laura Mulvey </p>
<p>Originally Published - Screen 16.3 Autumn 1975 pp. 6-18.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.brown.edu/Departments/MCM/nothing/index.php/Visual_Pleasure_and_Narrative_Cinema" rel="nofollow">You can find the full text of the article here</a>.</p>
<p>Love, C.</p>
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		<title>By: LauraJMixon</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8676</link>
		<dc:creator>LauraJMixon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Jan 2007 01:31:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8676</guid>
		<description>What Kate said.  My criterion for action, skiffy, fantasy, even kung fu flicks is, I love them.  But I demand that they be good -- i.e., have real people as characters, and not simply gun/ chop/ effects porn.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Kate said.  My criterion for action, skiffy, fantasy, even kung fu flicks is, I love them.  But I demand that they be good &#8212; i.e., have real people as characters, and not simply gun/ chop/ effects porn.</p>
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		<title>By: kateelliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8627</link>
		<dc:creator>kateelliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 13 Jan 2007 02:12:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8627</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Women enjoy action movies so long as you throw in a romantic B-plot and strong female character.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I'll accept this is a generalization.  I'm doubtful it's true.

I like all kinds of movies, including action movies - if they're GOOD.  Too many are sloppy excuses for violence and blowing things up and two dimensional characters.  I love sci-fi and fantasy movies, too.  I didn't go to Eragon because I had it on good authority (my kids) that it was bad.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Women enjoy action movies so long as you throw in a romantic B-plot and strong female character.</p></blockquote>
<p>I&#8217;ll accept this is a generalization.  I&#8217;m doubtful it&#8217;s true.</p>
<p>I like all kinds of movies, including action movies - if they&#8217;re GOOD.  Too many are sloppy excuses for violence and blowing things up and two dimensional characters.  I love sci-fi and fantasy movies, too.  I didn&#8217;t go to Eragon because I had it on good authority (my kids) that it was bad.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole L.</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8621</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jan 2007 23:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8621</guid>
		<description>Madeleine 
 -- No I think you were clear, maybe I was unclear. Since my memory of all those movies is hazy it's not surprising.

&lt;blockquote&gt;BTW, I have a hypothesis regarding movie marketing to men. I donâ€™t think itâ€™s inherent sexism (as if Hollywood wasnâ€™t liberal enough), as much as a need to overcome male ego.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

JD, I think you are right. My SO watched Pride and Prejudice (both versions, although he fell asleep during the remake, no fault to him), but he also likes to paint my nails, or his own nails sometimes. I think many of us inadvertently police men's masculinity, which is why they are afraid to admit they like or watch chick flicks. Also, like any establishment, Hollywood lags the trend understanding what people, either men or women, want. I heard once Hollywood has no idea if a movie is going to be successful or not (unless it's a sequel), so they go with what has worked in the past. I'm not sure if that's true or not.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madeleine<br />
 &#8212; No I think you were clear, maybe I was unclear. Since my memory of all those movies is hazy it&#8217;s not surprising.</p>
<blockquote><p>BTW, I have a hypothesis regarding movie marketing to men. I donâ€™t think itâ€™s inherent sexism (as if Hollywood wasnâ€™t liberal enough), as much as a need to overcome male ego.</p></blockquote>
<p>JD, I think you are right. My SO watched Pride and Prejudice (both versions, although he fell asleep during the remake, no fault to him), but he also likes to paint my nails, or his own nails sometimes. I think many of us inadvertently police men&#8217;s masculinity, which is why they are afraid to admit they like or watch chick flicks. Also, like any establishment, Hollywood lags the trend understanding what people, either men or women, want. I heard once Hollywood has no idea if a movie is going to be successful or not (unless it&#8217;s a sequel), so they go with what has worked in the past. I&#8217;m not sure if that&#8217;s true or not.</p>
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		<title>By: Mitch Wagner</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8615</link>
		<dc:creator>Mitch Wagner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jan 2007 19:15:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8615</guid>
		<description>JD:

&lt;blockquote&gt;BTW, I have a hypothesis regarding movie marketing to men. I donâ€™t think itâ€™s inherent sexism (as if Hollywood wasnâ€™t liberal enough), as much as a need to overcome male ego. The fact is, you will get a lot more women to go see Eragon than youâ€™ll get men to go watch The Yaya Sisterhood. Itâ€™s not that male viewers are more important than female onesâ€¦ the issue is expectations on men. (Or, maybe, itâ€™s the expectations we perceive to be on us.) I have female friends who will watch Mythbusters, and I must admit, I actually think that is cool. But one guy friend has an unusual fascination with the soap opera Passions. And we have gals who heckle him over it!
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I think it also has to do with the fact that it's easier to get women to go to Guy Movies than it is to get men to go to Chick Flicks. Women enjoy action movies so long as you throw in a romantic B-plot and strong female character. Indeed, the traditional action movie, from the 1970s or earlier, includes a doughty sidekick; if you make the doughty sidekick the hero's girlfriend, then you're all set. Example: "Romancing the Stone," which was told from the POV of the sidekick. 

Disclaimer: The preceding is a discussion of my perception of Hollywood's perception of business realities. As such, it is (a) a gross generalization, and (b) likely to be wrong, since I am by no means a Hollywood insider.

Disclaimer: The word "sidekick" is not meant to be disparaging. Indeed, generally speaking, I'd rather be the sidekick than the hero. The sidekick has more fun. He also gets the better girl: The hero settles down with some beautiful, respectable countess, while the sidekick takes up with a fiery Latina camp follower with a heart of gold. 

Also, I like Chick Movies just fine, if they're any good. The Yaya Sisterhood sounded like a dud, so I didn't watch it, but I saw and enjoyed "Traveling Pants," "Steel Magnolias" and (just a couple of weeks ago) "The Devil Wore Prada." 

And I also saw the "Bewitched" movie, which started this discussion, and enjoyed it for what it was. It had quite a few pieces that worked quite well, but it didn't really hang together. As such, it was more like a series of loosely connected sketches, rather than a coherent story. And the same is true for the "Longest Yard" remake.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>JD:</p>
<blockquote><p>BTW, I have a hypothesis regarding movie marketing to men. I donâ€™t think itâ€™s inherent sexism (as if Hollywood wasnâ€™t liberal enough), as much as a need to overcome male ego. The fact is, you will get a lot more women to go see Eragon than youâ€™ll get men to go watch The Yaya Sisterhood. Itâ€™s not that male viewers are more important than female onesâ€¦ the issue is expectations on men. (Or, maybe, itâ€™s the expectations we perceive to be on us.) I have female friends who will watch Mythbusters, and I must admit, I actually think that is cool. But one guy friend has an unusual fascination with the soap opera Passions. And we have gals who heckle him over it!
</p></blockquote>
<p>I think it also has to do with the fact that it&#8217;s easier to get women to go to Guy Movies than it is to get men to go to Chick Flicks. Women enjoy action movies so long as you throw in a romantic B-plot and strong female character. Indeed, the traditional action movie, from the 1970s or earlier, includes a doughty sidekick; if you make the doughty sidekick the hero&#8217;s girlfriend, then you&#8217;re all set. Example: &#8220;Romancing the Stone,&#8221; which was told from the POV of the sidekick. </p>
<p>Disclaimer: The preceding is a discussion of my perception of Hollywood&#8217;s perception of business realities. As such, it is (a) a gross generalization, and (b) likely to be wrong, since I am by no means a Hollywood insider.</p>
<p>Disclaimer: The word &#8220;sidekick&#8221; is not meant to be disparaging. Indeed, generally speaking, I&#8217;d rather be the sidekick than the hero. The sidekick has more fun. He also gets the better girl: The hero settles down with some beautiful, respectable countess, while the sidekick takes up with a fiery Latina camp follower with a heart of gold. </p>
<p>Also, I like Chick Movies just fine, if they&#8217;re any good. The Yaya Sisterhood sounded like a dud, so I didn&#8217;t watch it, but I saw and enjoyed &#8220;Traveling Pants,&#8221; &#8220;Steel Magnolias&#8221; and (just a couple of weeks ago) &#8220;The Devil Wore Prada.&#8221; </p>
<p>And I also saw the &#8220;Bewitched&#8221; movie, which started this discussion, and enjoyed it for what it was. It had quite a few pieces that worked quite well, but it didn&#8217;t really hang together. As such, it was more like a series of loosely connected sketches, rather than a coherent story. And the same is true for the &#8220;Longest Yard&#8221; remake.</p>
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		<title>By: retterson</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8582</link>
		<dc:creator>retterson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 15:45:28 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Madeleine -- well said! on the latest HP movies.  

Watching the first two, I get the sense of a dog sitting in front of me, looking up at me, waiting for me to praise him for being a good dog and getting all the scenes and magic book-true.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Madeleine &#8212; well said! on the latest HP movies.  </p>
<p>Watching the first two, I get the sense of a dog sitting in front of me, looking up at me, waiting for me to praise him for being a good dog and getting all the scenes and magic book-true.</p>
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		<title>By: Constance Ash</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8566</link>
		<dc:creator>Constance Ash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jan 2007 02:20:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8566</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I donâ€™t think itâ€™s inherent sexism (as if Hollywood wasnâ€™t liberal enough), as much as a need to overcome male ego.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Women working in movie / television industry call it sexism though, by and large -- not ALL women, but a lot of them.  Maybe even most of them.

But it's hard to accept that, other than looking at panting nekkid women, the only other thing that overcomes the male ego is violence, and ever more violence, of ever greater volicity.  For one thing, I live with one for whom this doesn't work at all.  The violence part, I mean.  The panting nekkid women always works for him.  :)

&lt;blockquote&gt;The fact is, you will get a lot more women to go see Eragon than youâ€™ll get men to go watch The Yaya Sisterhood. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

You won't see this woman at either one.  Run away!  Run away!

Love, C.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I donâ€™t think itâ€™s inherent sexism (as if Hollywood wasnâ€™t liberal enough), as much as a need to overcome male ego.</p></blockquote>
<p>Women working in movie / television industry call it sexism though, by and large &#8212; not ALL women, but a lot of them.  Maybe even most of them.</p>
<p>But it&#8217;s hard to accept that, other than looking at panting nekkid women, the only other thing that overcomes the male ego is violence, and ever more violence, of ever greater volicity.  For one thing, I live with one for whom this doesn&#8217;t work at all.  The violence part, I mean.  The panting nekkid women always works for him.  <img src='http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<blockquote><p>The fact is, you will get a lot more women to go see Eragon than youâ€™ll get men to go watch The Yaya Sisterhood. </p></blockquote>
<p>You won&#8217;t see this woman at either one.  Run away!  Run away!</p>
<p>Love, C.</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine Robins</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8554</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine Robins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 23:03:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8554</guid>
		<description>I think I was unclear: they weren't saying that &lt;i&gt;Affair to Remember&lt;/i&gt; was a parody of &lt;i&gt;The Dirty Dozen&lt;/i&gt; (which wouldn't work, as AtR predates TDD by about a decade).  The two guys were pretending to get as worked up and tearful about Jim Brown's death in &lt;i&gt;Dirty Dozen&lt;/i&gt; as a woman might about &lt;i&gt;Affair&lt;/i&gt;.

That is, unless a woman had seen the whole &lt;i&gt;Affair to Remember&lt;/i&gt; and suffered through the sequences where Deborah Kerr teaches a bunch of inner city moppets how to sing icky children's songs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I was unclear: they weren&#8217;t saying that <i>Affair to Remember</i> was a parody of <i>The Dirty Dozen</i> (which wouldn&#8217;t work, as AtR predates TDD by about a decade).  The two guys were pretending to get as worked up and tearful about Jim Brown&#8217;s death in <i>Dirty Dozen</i> as a woman might about <i>Affair</i>.</p>
<p>That is, unless a woman had seen the whole <i>Affair to Remember</i> and suffered through the sequences where Deborah Kerr teaches a bunch of inner city moppets how to sing icky children&#8217;s songs.</p>
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		<title>By: JD</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8550</link>
		<dc:creator>JD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 22:15:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8550</guid>
		<description>"I refer to these moments as: â€œand that was for the stupid people in the audienceâ€ moments. Often this is dialogue between two characters that spells out what just happened."

This can be pulled off though. They had a scene in the recent Pirates of the Caribbean (hey put down that tomato! i only mention  it matter of factly). 3 major characters were fighting while the heroine was stewing over the situation. Two lower level pirates happened on the scene, and one of them gave a somewhat witty and amusing commentary on the whole thing. 

Otherwise, I agree. I like stories or historical commentaries that leave you to figure out what the lesson or moral is. It's like a simple puzzle, and gets that gray, squishy stuff in your head working. Sometimes I wonder if our whole society is suffering mental atrophy. (ARGH... must ... resist... temptation... to rant cynically over media's impact on our culture.)


BTW, I have a hypothesis regarding movie marketing to men. I don't think it's inherent sexism (as if Hollywood wasn't liberal enough), as much as a need to overcome male ego. The fact is, you will get a lot more women to go see Eragon than you'll get men to go watch The Yaya Sisterhood. It's not that male viewers are more important than female ones... the issue is expectations on men. (Or, maybe, it's the expectations we perceive to be on us.) I have female friends who will watch Mythbusters, and I must admit, I actually think that is cool. But one guy friend has an unusual fascination with the soap opera Passions. And we have gals who heckle him over it!

Now, he's a good sport, and for some bizarre reason loves being the butt of jokes. But most guys will avoid anything that could be seen as challenging his masculinity. Hollywood realizes that, so when they can they will market a movie in a way that appeals to (or at least doesn't offend) men.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I refer to these moments as: â€œand that was for the stupid people in the audienceâ€ moments. Often this is dialogue between two characters that spells out what just happened.&#8221;</p>
<p>This can be pulled off though. They had a scene in the recent Pirates of the Caribbean (hey put down that tomato! i only mention  it matter of factly). 3 major characters were fighting while the heroine was stewing over the situation. Two lower level pirates happened on the scene, and one of them gave a somewhat witty and amusing commentary on the whole thing. </p>
<p>Otherwise, I agree. I like stories or historical commentaries that leave you to figure out what the lesson or moral is. It&#8217;s like a simple puzzle, and gets that gray, squishy stuff in your head working. Sometimes I wonder if our whole society is suffering mental atrophy. (ARGH&#8230; must &#8230; resist&#8230; temptation&#8230; to rant cynically over media&#8217;s impact on our culture.)</p>
<p>BTW, I have a hypothesis regarding movie marketing to men. I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s inherent sexism (as if Hollywood wasn&#8217;t liberal enough), as much as a need to overcome male ego. The fact is, you will get a lot more women to go see Eragon than you&#8217;ll get men to go watch The Yaya Sisterhood. It&#8217;s not that male viewers are more important than female ones&#8230; the issue is expectations on men. (Or, maybe, it&#8217;s the expectations we perceive to be on us.) I have female friends who will watch Mythbusters, and I must admit, I actually think that is cool. But one guy friend has an unusual fascination with the soap opera Passions. And we have gals who heckle him over it!</p>
<p>Now, he&#8217;s a good sport, and for some bizarre reason loves being the butt of jokes. But most guys will avoid anything that could be seen as challenging his masculinity. Hollywood realizes that, so when they can they will market a movie in a way that appeals to (or at least doesn&#8217;t offend) men.</p>
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		<title>By: Nicole L.</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8547</link>
		<dc:creator>Nicole L.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jan 2007 20:28:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/and-the-moral-of-our-story#comment-8547</guid>
		<description>I saw &lt;em&gt;Sleepless in Seattle&lt;/em&gt; when it came out, but since I've never seen &lt;em&gt;The Dirty Dozen&lt;/em&gt; (although I have seen &lt;em&gt;An Affair to Remember&lt;/em&gt;) that part went right over my head. I'll have to check it out.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I saw <em>Sleepless in Seattle</em> when it came out, but since I&#8217;ve never seen <em>The Dirty Dozen</em> (although I have seen <em>An Affair to Remember</em>) that part went right over my head. I&#8217;ll have to check it out.</p>
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