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	<title>Comments on: Continuing a Character</title>
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	<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character</link>
	<description>Writing and Reading. Commerce and Art. Fantasy and Science Fiction. Discuss.</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 28 Aug 2008 12:29:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: kateelliott</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-26098</link>
		<dc:creator>kateelliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 May 2007 01:59:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-26098</guid>
		<description>what do we do about realism?  How much is too much?  That is, to the point where the reader no longer can deal with the narrative?  And in that case, are we then dumbing down in the sense of smoothing away the ugly truth?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>what do we do about realism?  How much is too much?  That is, to the point where the reader no longer can deal with the narrative?  And in that case, are we then dumbing down in the sense of smoothing away the ugly truth?</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine Robins</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-26082</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine Robins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 23:43:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-26082</guid>
		<description>I have never doubted for a moment that burnout and bitterness are realistic given the horrendous things that social workers and child psychiatrists encounter--and this guy has repeatedly dealt with serial killers and deranged abusers and the what-have-you of the modern thriller.  The problem is that we have very little to hold on to by way of Delaware himself.  In the hands of a more thoughtful writer perhaps the realistic burnout could have been better balanced with some of the original compassion of the character.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have never doubted for a moment that burnout and bitterness are realistic given the horrendous things that social workers and child psychiatrists encounter&#8211;and this guy has repeatedly dealt with serial killers and deranged abusers and the what-have-you of the modern thriller.  The problem is that we have very little to hold on to by way of Delaware himself.  In the hands of a more thoughtful writer perhaps the realistic burnout could have been better balanced with some of the original compassion of the character.</p>
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		<title>By: Katharine Kerr</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-26076</link>
		<dc:creator>Katharine Kerr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 22:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-26076</guid>
		<description>Re: Delaware -- I've known 3 social work professionals who worked with abused kids.  They all burned out very fast and went to the edge of being bitter and cynical, so they quit, even though they hated to desert the children.   The laws and the budgets they had simply didn't allow them to really rescue the children; all they could do was remove them from their parents or parent and put them in foster homes, where they were safe from abuse but mostly ignored and miserable.   So I suspect the author of that series is injecting some realism.  Whether that's a good idea or not is the subject to debate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Re: Delaware &#8212; I&#8217;ve known 3 social work professionals who worked with abused kids.  They all burned out very fast and went to the edge of being bitter and cynical, so they quit, even though they hated to desert the children.   The laws and the budgets they had simply didn&#8217;t allow them to really rescue the children; all they could do was remove them from their parents or parent and put them in foster homes, where they were safe from abuse but mostly ignored and miserable.   So I suspect the author of that series is injecting some realism.  Whether that&#8217;s a good idea or not is the subject to debate.</p>
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		<title>By: Walter Jon Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-26071</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter Jon Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 03 May 2007 19:21:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-26071</guid>
		<description>Obviously these things have to be done in moderation.

The problem is to keep your continuing character human.

If you've got a series character, that series will most likely consist of the character overcoming one obstacle after another.  Winning, in other words.  (A series about a character who continually loses does not seem to exist.)

Winning winning winning, volume after volume.  The character can become eerily perfect.

The more skills I give a character--- in other words, the more perfect the character becomes--- the more free I feel to ladle out the trauma and neurosis.  

I remember when Harry Potter's worst problems were the Dursleys.  Being forced to sleep under the stair probably seems pretty good to him, now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obviously these things have to be done in moderation.</p>
<p>The problem is to keep your continuing character human.</p>
<p>If you&#8217;ve got a series character, that series will most likely consist of the character overcoming one obstacle after another.  Winning, in other words.  (A series about a character who continually loses does not seem to exist.)</p>
<p>Winning winning winning, volume after volume.  The character can become eerily perfect.</p>
<p>The more skills I give a character&#8212; in other words, the more perfect the character becomes&#8212; the more free I feel to ladle out the trauma and neurosis.  </p>
<p>I remember when Harry Potter&#8217;s worst problems were the Dursleys.  Being forced to sleep under the stair probably seems pretty good to him, now.</p>
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		<title>By: Terri</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25969</link>
		<dc:creator>Terri</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 02 May 2007 08:39:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25969</guid>
		<description>The other problem with piling on the trauma is if it gets &lt;em&gt;too&lt;/em&gt; believable - I very nearly quit "A Man In Full" several times because Conrad's travails were breaking my heart.  Wolfe made me care about him, and then kept hurting him until I very nearly burned the book.

Which the library would not have liked very much, I admit *grin*</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The other problem with piling on the trauma is if it gets <em>too</em> believable - I very nearly quit &#8220;A Man In Full&#8221; several times because Conrad&#8217;s travails were breaking my heart.  Wolfe made me care about him, and then kept hurting him until I very nearly burned the book.</p>
<p>Which the library would not have liked very much, I admit *grin*</p>
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		<title>By: Marie Brennan</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25942</link>
		<dc:creator>Marie Brennan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 01 May 2007 14:05:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25942</guid>
		<description>Piling on the trauma and the unsolvable problem have to be used in moderation, though; I've seen authors ratchet the angst up again and again until it passes out of the territory where the reader can sympathize and into the territory where it starts seeming silly, and if the same problem continues for too long, readers stop having sympathy for it.  (That latter one works better for me when it's a background issue, rather than one up at the front, where the character angsts about it endlessly.  After a while, you just want to yell at them to Get Over It.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Piling on the trauma and the unsolvable problem have to be used in moderation, though; I&#8217;ve seen authors ratchet the angst up again and again until it passes out of the territory where the reader can sympathize and into the territory where it starts seeming silly, and if the same problem continues for too long, readers stop having sympathy for it.  (That latter one works better for me when it&#8217;s a background issue, rather than one up at the front, where the character angsts about it endlessly.  After a while, you just want to yell at them to Get Over It.)</p>
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		<title>By: Walter Jon Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25913</link>
		<dc:creator>Walter Jon Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 23:55:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25913</guid>
		<description>I was also annoyed by the Harry Potter of &lt;em&gt;Order of the Phoenix&lt;/em&gt;, until I listened to the whole series on audio book, and then realized that &lt;em&gt;Order of the Phoenix&lt;/em&gt; is actually &lt;em&gt;Goblet of Fire, Book II.&lt;/em&gt;

&lt;em&gt;Order of the Phoenix&lt;/em&gt; starts just &lt;em&gt;days&lt;/em&gt; after the previous book ends.  Harry's just seen his friend Cedric murdered in front of his eyes, he's fought a duel with Voldemort and been tortured by him, and he's found out that his mentor Moody was actually a bad guy luring him to his death.  And now, in the new book, all his friends are lying to him.

Of &lt;em&gt;course&lt;/em&gt; he's angry.  He's also depressed, anxious, and frantic.  I would be, too, and so would you.

As for ways of keeping continuing characters bright, shiny, and interesting, I've been working with the same set of problems.  Here are some of my solutions, all of which can be found in my recent fiction, and all of which seem to be working (so far).

&lt;em&gt;Pile on the trauma&lt;/em&gt;.  Find new, ingenious, relentless, arbitrary, and utterly cruel ways to torture your characters.  (Note: this one works really well for Rowling.)

&lt;em&gt;When one goes up, another must go down.&lt;/em&gt;  When Buffy's love life goes to shit, Xander's mysteriously brightens.  In fiction, contrasts are good.  

&lt;em&gt;Genius has no reward&lt;/em&gt;.  Your character's talent and success do not lead to acceptance, but only isolates her from her peers.  See earlier remark about contrasts.  (Rowling also does this very well.)

&lt;em&gt;Meet the Stupids&lt;/em&gt;.  Your character has just been assigned to serve under Captain Stupid, who is doing his level best to get her killed.  Most of her energy will be taken up battling oafish superiors rather than dealing with the opposition.  

&lt;em&gt;Meet Machiavelli&lt;/em&gt; Your character has become a pawn in the awesomely complex schemes of another character, who is himself not necessarily a bad guy.  Most of her energy will be taken up trying to figure out what's going on rather than dealing with the opposition.  (See: &lt;em&gt;Order of the Phoenix&lt;/em&gt;)

&lt;em&gt;Give your character one problem that can never be solved, and which is making her crazy.&lt;/em&gt;  Your character has a dark secret that can never be revealed.  Or she's in love with someone she can never have.  Or there are social barriers that prevent her from ever, ever, ever being accepted.  Or your character's family situation is simply horrid, and there's no fixing it.  (I use all of these.)

These are, on one level, all cheap tricks for generating audience sympathy and for preventing your character from turning into an eerie icon of Mary Sue-ish perfection.  But they're tricks that work, and they've worked for some very fine writers indeed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was also annoyed by the Harry Potter of <em>Order of the Phoenix</em>, until I listened to the whole series on audio book, and then realized that <em>Order of the Phoenix</em> is actually <em>Goblet of Fire, Book II.</em></p>
<p><em>Order of the Phoenix</em> starts just <em>days</em> after the previous book ends.  Harry&#8217;s just seen his friend Cedric murdered in front of his eyes, he&#8217;s fought a duel with Voldemort and been tortured by him, and he&#8217;s found out that his mentor Moody was actually a bad guy luring him to his death.  And now, in the new book, all his friends are lying to him.</p>
<p>Of <em>course</em> he&#8217;s angry.  He&#8217;s also depressed, anxious, and frantic.  I would be, too, and so would you.</p>
<p>As for ways of keeping continuing characters bright, shiny, and interesting, I&#8217;ve been working with the same set of problems.  Here are some of my solutions, all of which can be found in my recent fiction, and all of which seem to be working (so far).</p>
<p><em>Pile on the trauma</em>.  Find new, ingenious, relentless, arbitrary, and utterly cruel ways to torture your characters.  (Note: this one works really well for Rowling.)</p>
<p><em>When one goes up, another must go down.</em>  When Buffy&#8217;s love life goes to shit, Xander&#8217;s mysteriously brightens.  In fiction, contrasts are good.  </p>
<p><em>Genius has no reward</em>.  Your character&#8217;s talent and success do not lead to acceptance, but only isolates her from her peers.  See earlier remark about contrasts.  (Rowling also does this very well.)</p>
<p><em>Meet the Stupids</em>.  Your character has just been assigned to serve under Captain Stupid, who is doing his level best to get her killed.  Most of her energy will be taken up battling oafish superiors rather than dealing with the opposition.  </p>
<p><em>Meet Machiavelli</em> Your character has become a pawn in the awesomely complex schemes of another character, who is himself not necessarily a bad guy.  Most of her energy will be taken up trying to figure out what&#8217;s going on rather than dealing with the opposition.  (See: <em>Order of the Phoenix</em>)</p>
<p><em>Give your character one problem that can never be solved, and which is making her crazy.</em>  Your character has a dark secret that can never be revealed.  Or she&#8217;s in love with someone she can never have.  Or there are social barriers that prevent her from ever, ever, ever being accepted.  Or your character&#8217;s family situation is simply horrid, and there&#8217;s no fixing it.  (I use all of these.)</p>
<p>These are, on one level, all cheap tricks for generating audience sympathy and for preventing your character from turning into an eerie icon of Mary Sue-ish perfection.  But they&#8217;re tricks that work, and they&#8217;ve worked for some very fine writers indeed.</p>
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		<title>By: Brendan Podger</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25773</link>
		<dc:creator>Brendan Podger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Apr 2007 09:33:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25773</guid>
		<description>Arrgh!  If I want "real" I will talk to workmates or watch news or current affairs shows.  I want a &lt;strong&gt;story&lt;/strong&gt; and things that get in the way of the story like pages and pages of pointless fighting between friends or over-description of events or shouting scenes written all in capitals(ouch my eyes hurt), in my view just get in the way.

IMO a book shouldn't be "hard to read".  Now I don't mean it should be the sort of story that you can pick up, read, and put down without it impinging on your conscienceness, but it also shouldn't be too hard work.  If a book is trending towards the "hard to read" end of the scale what saves it is characters you connect with and care about.  I have never had any time for teen angst(even my own) and I certainly don't want to read it in my fantasy books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arrgh!  If I want &#8220;real&#8221; I will talk to workmates or watch news or current affairs shows.  I want a <strong>story</strong> and things that get in the way of the story like pages and pages of pointless fighting between friends or over-description of events or shouting scenes written all in capitals(ouch my eyes hurt), in my view just get in the way.</p>
<p>IMO a book shouldn&#8217;t be &#8220;hard to read&#8221;.  Now I don&#8217;t mean it should be the sort of story that you can pick up, read, and put down without it impinging on your conscienceness, but it also shouldn&#8217;t be too hard work.  If a book is trending towards the &#8220;hard to read&#8221; end of the scale what saves it is characters you connect with and care about.  I have never had any time for teen angst(even my own) and I certainly don&#8217;t want to read it in my fantasy books.</p>
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		<title>By: Madeleine Robins</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25544</link>
		<dc:creator>Madeleine Robins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2007 18:48:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25544</guid>
		<description>Me too.  It was hard to read in the same way that living with a teenager is hard to do, but it read &lt;i&gt;real&lt;/i&gt; to me.

I have to say that I never meant to write a series.  It just sort of happened.  But now I'm embarked upon the project, I do want to treat both my readers and the characters fairly.  Of course, what my readers may expect is reasonable for the characters and what I believe is reasonable will not, um, always mesh.  I win in the short term because I'm the writer.  The readers win in the long term if they decide I've rendered the characters too unlikeable, but cause they just won't buy the books.  What's a mother to do?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Me too.  It was hard to read in the same way that living with a teenager is hard to do, but it read <i>real</i> to me.</p>
<p>I have to say that I never meant to write a series.  It just sort of happened.  But now I&#8217;m embarked upon the project, I do want to treat both my readers and the characters fairly.  Of course, what my readers may expect is reasonable for the characters and what I believe is reasonable will not, um, always mesh.  I win in the short term because I&#8217;m the writer.  The readers win in the long term if they decide I&#8217;ve rendered the characters too unlikeable, but cause they just won&#8217;t buy the books.  What&#8217;s a mother to do?</p>
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		<title>By: Sherwood Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25193</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherwood Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Apr 2007 00:16:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.deepgenre.com/wordpress/madeleine-robins/misc/continuing-a-character#comment-25193</guid>
		<description>I'm with Kate on the grouchy Harry!  And for the same reason.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m with Kate on the grouchy Harry!  And for the same reason.</p>
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